Best songs of 1949: Wrap Up 3

September 28, 2016

Wishing Lata Mangeshkar a very Happy Birthday on her 87th birth anniversary (b. 28 September 1929) with her best songs of 1949

Lata MangeshkarIt is a no-brainer that Lata Mangeshkar was the best female playback singer of 1949. In later years, that would become routine – she defined the lead female voice. But in 1949, it must have been an amazing phenomenon. Here was a twenty year-old girl who had an inconspicuous debut as a playback singer a couple of years earlier in Aap Ki Sewa Mein (1947). The next year some stories started growing around her – how Ghulam Haider ‘discovered’ her, took her to S Mukherji of Filmistan for Shaheed, but he rejected her as her voice was too thin, whereupon Ghulam Haider famously told him that a day would come when the producers and music directors would line up before her, begging her to sing for them. She did have a couple of memorable songs in the year, but who could have thought that in 1949 a dam would burst with torrent of Lata Mangeshkar songs, leaving the yesteryear stalwarts dazed?

Thus, it came as a shock to Shamshad Begum that Darna mohabbat kar le she was singing in Andaaz was actually a duet with Lata Mangeshkar singing for Nargis, her voice going for Cuckoo. She could do nothing but reconcile to the fact that Lata Mangeshkar got to sing the solos Uthaye ja unke sitam and Koi mere dil mein khushi ba ke aya for Nargis. She had the consolation of being the lead singer in Chandni Raat, but in Dulari she had two songs for Lata Mangeshkar’s nine, including duets. The writing on the wall where Naushad was heading was clear.

His worthy rival C Ramchandra had not yet fallen wholesale for Lata Mangeshkar, but Patanga too had a transition from Shamshad Begum to Lata Mangeshkar. Dil se bhula do tum humein, Kabhi khamosh ho jana/ kabhi frayad na karna/ magar ek bewafa se chupke chupke pyar kar lena and O janewale tune armanon ki duniya loot li were portent of things to come. There were more films in which C Ramchnadra juxtaposed Lata Mangeshkar with advantage over Shamshad Begum – Dard jaga ke thes laga ke chale gaye haye chale gaye (Sipahiya), Ek thes lagi dil toot gaya (Namoona) etc.

Their senior, Anil Biswas, came up with the immortal Tumhare bulane ko ji chahta hai. The other vintage era Master, Khemchand Prakash, rewrote history with Ayega anewala, which became a template for haunting songs in spooky films. Till then the 78 rpm records mentioned the screen name of the actor on whom the song was picturised – in this case Kamini (played by Madhubala, Mahal). But clamour by the listeners to know the voice behind this song forced the radio stations to start announcing Lata Mangeshkar’s name as the singer. This also led to the playback singers’ names being mentioned in credit titles of the films, starting from Barsaat.

Talking of Barsaat, its music directors Shankar-Jaikishan brought in another tectonic shift in the year,  with Lata Mangeshkar at the heart of their magic with Hawa mein udata jaye, Jiya beqaraar hai, Bichhade huye pardesi ek baar to ana tu and Meri ankhon mein bas gaya koi re.

SJ’s mentors and the first duo of Hindi films, Husnlal-Bhagatram gave some of their best songs for Lata Mangeshkar – Chale jana nahi nai mila ke and Jo dil mein khushi ban kar aye. And which are Shyam Sundar’s two greatest songs for Lata Mangeshkar? – Baharein phir bhi ayengi and Sajan ki galiyan chhod chale came in 1949. Another doyen of the Punjab school of music, Hansraj Bahal, created an all-time great song Haye chanda gaye pardes.

I was doing a series on SJ during this year. Therefore, the obvious option was to do a post on their best songs for Lata Mangeshkar as a tribute on her birthday. I may mention that on her several previous birthdays I have paid tribute to her by posting her best songs by a prominent music director – C Ramchandra (2011), SD Burman (2013), Anil Biswas (2014) and Naushad (2015). But, coincidentally, this was also the year for review of the best songs of 1949, in which the Wrap Up 3 was to be devoted to her best songs. I settled for the latter, because it presents a fascinating picture at a very early stage of Lata Mangeshkar’s career. One can only imagine how the listeners of the time would have felt being witness to history being created.

Readers might recall from the Wrap Up 2 of the best songs of the ‘other’ female playback singers, this is how their relative share in my Select List looks. A picture is worth a thousand words – 1949 is the beginning of the era of Lata Mangehskar and the ‘others’.

Best female solos of 1949

In all my Wrap Ups, I make a first cut of songs after which I prune it down to 10. Some readers added several Lata Mangeshkar songs. Since the exercise is one of elimination, I would confine myself to the Select List of memorable songs in my overview post. In the first cut, I scan the list keeping those songs one can’t do without, but I am still left with about two dozen songs. I bring it down to 20 songs which I am putting not in order, but music director-wise.

FIRST CUT
Anil Biswas

1.  Tumhare bulane ko ji chahta hai (Laadli)
C Ramchandra
2.  Dil se bhula do tum humein (Patanga)
3.  Thukra ke janewale..O janewlae tune armanon ki duniya (Patanga)
4.  Kabhi khamosh ho jana (Patanga)
5.  Dard jaga ke thes laga ke chale gaye haye chale gaye (Sipahiya)
Hansaj Bahal
6.  Haye chanda gaye pardes (Chakori)
Husnlal-Bhagatram
7. Chale jana nahi (Badi Bahan)
8. Jo dil mein khsushi ban kar aye (Badi Bahan)
Khemchand Prakash
9. Ayega anewala (Mahal)
10. Mushqil hai bahut mushqil chahat ka bhula dena (Mahal)
Nuashad
11. Uthaye ja unke sitam (Andaaz)
12. Koi mere dil mein khushi ban ke aya (Andaaz)
13. Ae dil tujhe qasam hai (Dulari)
14.  Na wo humse juda honge (Dulari)
Shankar Jaikishan
15. Hawa mein udta jaye (Barsaat)
16. Jiya beqaraar hai (Barsaat)
17. Meri ankhon mein bas gaya ko re (Barsaat)
18. Bichhade huye pardesi ek baar to ana tu (Barsaat)
Shyam Sundar
19. Saajan ki galiyan chhod chale (Bazaar)
20. Baharein phir bi ayengi (Lahore)

Now comes the difficult task of bringing it down to ten. Several readers have given their choice for the best song as well as a list of the best Lata Mangeshkar songs. Anil Biswas was one of her major mentors, grooming her on breath control, and the technical aspects of singing before the mike. He was famous for composing some of her sweetest songs. He was also one of the few who gave her everlasting songs at the beginning of her career, such as Yaad rakhana chaand taro is suhani raat ko (Anokha Pyar, 1948). Tumhare bulane ko ji chahta hai is not only among his best for her, it is among her greatest songs ever by any MD.

C Ramchandra would become synonymous with Lata Mangeshkar in later years. From the abovementioned four, at least two are worth including – Dil se bhula do tum humein and Dard jaga ke thes laga ke. But given the extremely tight situation, I leave out the second song. Hansraj Bahal’s Haye chanda gaye pardes makes an entry without any question. This is a song which is said to have brought tears to the eyes of the percussionist during recording. Husnlal-Bhagatram’s Chale jana nahi is joyous whereas Jo dil mein khuhi ban ke aye is poignant, both having some fantastic harmonium music. Again with a heavy heart I let go of the second song, retaining the immortal Chale jana nahi.

Reams have been written on Ayega anewala. That makes five songs. For the remaining five slots, I reserve two for Shyam Sundar’s Sajan ki galiyan and Baharein phir bhi ayengi. Naushad and Shankar-Jaikishan have now to share the remaining three slots. Raga Pahadi-based Meri ankhon mein bas gaya koi re is an incredibly melodious song. Uthaye ja unke sitam is a complex ghazal which only Lata Mangeshkar could have sung. The one remaining slot can go to either SJ or Naushad, they have composed one superlative song after another. No one would object if I include Ae dil tujhe qasam hai to complete the ten.

As for ranking of the above ten, Arunji is always very unambiguous about his choice – it is Sajan ki galiyan chhod chale. Some readers have chosen Uthaye ja unke sitam (Siddharth, KS Bhatiaji), Chale jana nahi (Shalan Lal, Gaddeswarupji) or Ayega anewala (Venkataramnanji). Several readers have given a list of their favourite Lata Mangeshkar songs. I find a high degree of overlap from my selection.

The best song of 1949

Frankly, choosing the best Lata Mangeshkar song from the above list is an impossible task. Let me, however, give one perspective. Shyam Sundar’s both songs based on the Raga Pahadi, the most common Raga used in film songs, are immortal. Barsaat was a quintessential movie of the mountains where the city-slick hero and his friend go for their annual vacation – the friend for having fun with the innocent belle who pines for him in love, but the hero of the sincere temperament finds real love in Nargis, who sings a beautiful song of romance and hope, but with an underlying pathos – Meri ankhon mein bas gaya koi re. SJ compose one of the sweetest songs in Pahadi. The song captures everything said by a site soundofindia.com so beautifully about Raga Pahadi: This raga is like a lover, unruffled in union, serene in separation, powerful enough to achieve eternal union, but resigned to the painful parting ordained by destiny. Therefore, let us declare all the three songs – Sajan ki galiyan chhod chale, Baharein phir bhi ayengi and Meri ankhon mein bas gaya koi re as the joint winner of the SoY Award for the Best Lata Mangeshkar song of 1949.

Lata Mangeshkar’s 20 at 20

Even with the twenty songs I started with as the First Cut, I can foresee Jignesh, Mahesh and Arvinder Sharmaji, who mentioned a number of songs, complaining that some great songs are still left out. Therefore, I am making an exception this year in the context of the exceptional phenomenon of Lata Mangeshkar when she was only 20. I propose to post all the 20 songs as our tribute to her on her birth anniversary. However, I would try to keep the first ten in order as far as possible taking into account the readers’ choices. Before I part, let me also mention that it is often said that she imitated her idol Noorjehan’s style in the beginning of her career. You can see from several of the 20 songs that she clearly showed that she was a unique singer in her own right.

1-3. Saajan ki galiyan chhod chale from Bazaar, lyrics Qamar Jalalabadi, music Shyam Sundar

1-3. Meri ankhon mein bas gaya koi re from Barsaat, lyrics Hasrat Jaipuri, music Shankar-Jaikishan

1-3. Baharein phir bhi ayengi from Lahore, lyrics Rajendra Krishna, music Shyam Sundar

4. Ayega anewala from Mahal, lyrics Nakhshab Jarachavi, music Khemchand Prakash

5. Uthaye ja unke sitam from Andaaz, lyrics Majrooh Sultanpuri, music Naushad

6. Chale jana nahi nain mila ke from Badi Bahan, lyrics Qamar Jalalabadi, music Husnlal-Bhagatram

7. Tumhare bulane ko ji chahta hai from Laadli, lyrics Bahzad Lakhanavi, music Anil Biswas

8. Dil se bhula do tum humein from Patanga, lyrics Rajnendra Krishna, music C Ramchandra

9. Haye chanda gaye pardes from Chakori, lyrics Mulk Raj Bhakhri, music Hansraj Bahal

10. Ae dil tujhe qasam hai himmat na harna from Dulari, lyrics Shakeel Badayuni, music Naushad

11. Kabhi khamosh ho jana from Patanga, lyrics Rajendra Krishna, music C Ramchandra

12. Dard jaga ke thes laga ke from Sipahiya, lyrics Rammoorti Chaturvedi, music C Ramchandra

13. Koi mere dil mein khushi ban ke aya from Andaaz, lyrics Majrooh Sultanpuri, music Naushad

14. Jiya beqaraar hai chayi bahar hai from Barsaat, lyrics Hasrat Jaipuri, music Shankar-Jaikishan

15. Bichhade huye pardesi from Barsaat, lyrics Hasrat Jaipuri, music Sankar-Jaikishan

16. Mushqil hai bahut mushqil from Mahal, lyrics Nakshab Jarachavi, music Khemchand Prakash

17. Hawa mein udata jaye from Barsaat, lyrics Ramesh Bakhshi, music Shankar-Jaikishan

18. Jo dil mein khushi ban kar aye from Badi Bahan, lyrics Qamar Jalalabadi, music Husnlal-Bhagatram

19. O janewale tune armano ki duniya loot li from Patanga, lyrics Rajnedra Krishna, music C Ramchandra

20. Na wo humse juda honge from Dulari, lyrics Shakeel Badayuni, music Naushad

{ 146 comments… read them below or add one }

1 Jignesh Kotadia September 28, 2016 at 11:50 am

Akji,
theme selected this time is again fantastic as u picked Lata of only 1949.
I was expecting some thing else.
But
what is the exact reason that you did not adjoin Aayega Aanewala into no. 1 league !?

2 Jignesh Kotadia September 28, 2016 at 11:54 am

I personally do not believe that Aayega Aanewala is a contender of 4th place..

3 N Venkataraman September 28, 2016 at 11:56 am

Akji,
For the past couple of days I was trying to rack my brain but could not guess your area of focus for the 28th September post. It will be on Lata Mangeshkar, which we all knew. But I could not anticipate the obvious. It was a welcome surprise. Lata Mangeshkar’s best songs of 1949.You could not have made a better choice!
“A picture is worth a thousand words – 1949 is the beginning of the era of Lata Mangehskar and the ‘others’.”
That single line and the pie carried the quintessence of this post. Indeed a great post.

4 arvindersharma September 28, 2016 at 1:31 pm

AK Ji,
You are a master of real pleasant surprise(es).
Just like Dear Venkataram Ji, I was contemplating on the subject of this Lata post, and my guess was sad songs of Lata for SJ.
But this masterpiece of a post, Lata 49, is another cutter of a ball, which has most of us foxed.
Will be posting some of my favorites, as habits die hard.

5 AK September 28, 2016 at 1:59 pm

Jignesh,
Thanks for your appreciation. No one can take away the fact that Ayega anewala is a history-making song. I have said so in my write-up, and I have always been mentioning this song whenever 1949 songs are discussed. I have really no defence for not placing it at No. 1, except that I am more moved by some other songs. You can also partly attribute it to my quirkiness to do something different.

Venkataramanji, Arvinder Sharmaji,
Thanks a lot for your appreciation. Since everyone ‘knew’ it would be centred around Lata Mangeshkar, I had do something unanticipated, but on her. Fortunately, 1949 presented itself. Lata Mangeshkar in 1949 has been special for me for long, even before I started blogging.

6 Shalan Lal September 28, 2016 at 2:43 pm

AK

You have brought this wrap up of 1949 at very right time. All these songs are dimonds in her crown and nobody will ever take it from her as long as there would be Hindi langauge and Hindi film culture. I have not enough words to praise you for this post.

I wish Lata all her happiness and hope she would forgive those trespassed against her and caused her wounds that could not be healed.

But now is the time in her life that she should work on the real charitable work that would last beyond her and will bring back her memories of her great musical contribution for the eternity.

Shalan Lal

7 AK September 28, 2016 at 3:42 pm

Shalan Lal,
Thanks a lot for your appreciation.

She presents an interesting case study whether a great artiste would be ipso facto a great human being. When I think of her, I stop being judgmental, and think only of the immortal music she has given.

8 Anu Warrier September 28, 2016 at 6:33 pm

AK, kudos. The introduction to the post was extremely well-written. It’s also a really nice (and unexpected) way to celebrate the birthday of someone who has given us such auditory pleasure for so many years.

You know my opinion of ‘Best of’ anything. 🙂 I skipped over the compare and contrasts (even though your pie chart made the post very colourful) and went straight to the songs, to which I’m listening even as I type this.

Thank you for the begining and end of your post. It is not the fault iof your writing that I skipped the middle. 🙂

I abhor the depiction of Lata as a manipulative, deceitful, selfish person. Not that you or any of your readers did so. This is just something that I have been thinking about for some time. I think we take great pleasure in building our idols up and then pulling them apart with unholy glee. Lata is neither saint nor sinner – she is, like all of us, a flawed human. How about we just let her be, and enjoy the talent with which she’s entertained us for decades? No one can deny that she is one of the greatest singers to have graced at least our lifetimes.

On her birthday, I hope she lives long, stays in good health, and god help me, doesn’t sing another note in public. I say this as someone who, if pushed to name a favourite female singer, would pick Lata over anyone else. 🙂 Once again, thank you for this post.

9 AK September 28, 2016 at 7:09 pm

Anu,
Coming from you, it is a very high praise indeed. Thanks a lot.

If I am permitted some self-flattery, I think I have not written the middle portion too badly. I hope, you would find time to see it.

I am with you on great artiste versus great human being debate. I know her for her songs, I don’t care for the rest.

I wish her a long, healthy life. You shouldn’t have any fear of her singing now, she has left that long ago. 🙂

10 Nasreen September 28, 2016 at 7:20 pm

I am a bit surprised that the song “ho..o o..mujhe kisi se pyaar ho gaya” was left out of yr list. I find it to be an incredibly melodious song, almost slightly more so than “hawa mein udta jaaye” even though the latter is probably the more popular one – and of course not surprisingly. But the ‘lilt’ in her voice in Mujhe kisi se makes me think of a fawn running happily and lightfootedly through the woods, and other pretty images like that.

I hv not read the posts in response to this article, excepting for the last one Anu Warrior’s, which mentions that Lata is neither saint nor sinner, but like us all, a flawed human. Well, I wonder if there any humans that are without flaws.
But her singing ? That is surely flawless!
All the singers and musicians of the golden era were great, but there are just a couple that were endowed by nature with the voice! – that made the song. Lata’s voice is indescribable in its beauty. Along with the voice she also had the finesse, the talent and the other thing that set her (and Rafi) apart – the ability to feel and make their listeners feel the sheer spirit of the song, no matter what type of song it was.

A bit of magic really.

11 mumbaikar8 September 28, 2016 at 7:39 pm

AK
Was wondering why you had delayed the female wrap of 1949 Lata songs:)
Well timed and very well wrapped up.
My favourite is tumhare bulane ko jee chahate hai.
Wishing her a happy and healthy life and thanking her for giving us so many great songs.
At times I question what would I had done walking or driving without the songs from 50’s and 60’s

12 Subodh Agrawal September 28, 2016 at 9:33 pm

Nothing much to say except compliment you on this excellent post. I like the pride of place going to Pahadi. It is a raga that never fails to touch the heart.

13 Giri September 28, 2016 at 9:38 pm

AK,
A very well written post to celebrate Lata ji’s 87th birthday. As one who is devoted to her voice, I join all the members of SOY community in praying for a long,healthy and happy life for lata ji.
I agree with Anu@8 about the depiction of Lata ji’s (professional) life in some quarters. (“kuch to log kahenge, logon ka kaam hai kehna!). Lata ji was a thorough professional during her career and her tiffs with SDB, Rafi saheb etc. were open. And these tiffs actually opened out windows of opportunities for others.
As usual I am waiting eagerly for the additions from the experts

14 Ashwin Bhandarkar September 28, 2016 at 11:31 pm

AK,

Great choice of topic, and befitting of the occasion ! A confession – I am a die-hard fan of Lata’s voice and her singing, and I love the way you lose no opportunity to drive home the fact that she is a singer nonpareil . Also, I can’t agree more with the views on Lata expressed by Anu,Nasreen and Giri. To add to the point made by Giri, Lata’s stance on royalties, which led to her falling out with Rafi, was vindicated when HMV started paying singers royalties,something which succeeding generations of singers need to be thankful for.

15 Jignesh Kotadia September 28, 2016 at 11:46 pm

at the end of day,
very happy birthday to Latadidi..
wish you live 50 more..

some of her best from 1949

1. Itna bhi beqason ko na aasman sataaye
ke dil ka dard lab par fariyaad ban ke aaye
(Bholi, Pt. Govindram)

16 Ashok Kumar Tyagi September 28, 2016 at 11:49 pm

AK ji
Best wishes to Lata ji on her birthday.
Congrats to you on a superb post. All the twenty songs are beautiful, I have heard some of these only a few times. Thanks for bringing them together here so that it is now easy to get back to them and enjoy the magic of lovely voice, good lyrics and excellent musical score – not to forget lovely performers on screen.
It is notable that in these songs the rhythm patterns and percussion instruments are basically Indian.
Thanks.

17 Jignesh Kotadia September 28, 2016 at 11:56 pm

2. Lut gayee umeedon ki duniya
khoon hua armaanon ka
apnon ne barbaad kiya
kya shikwa kare begaanon ka
(Jal tarang, HBLal )

3. Mast pawan hai chanchal dhara
man ki naiya dol na jaaye
aaj samaa hai kitna pyara
man ki naiya dol na jaaye
(Jeet, Anilda)

18 Jignesh Kotadia September 28, 2016 at 11:59 pm

AKji
glad to see Aye dil tujhe kasam hai in your top ten.

19 Jignesh Kotadia September 29, 2016 at 12:09 am

three superb songs from Paaras, GMohd.

4. Is dard ki maari duniya
mujh sa bhi koi majboor na ho
jis tarha khushi se door hun main
yun koi khushi se door na ho..

5. Dil ka sahara tut na jaaye
Ban ke naseeba fut na jaaye

6. Aaj meri duniya men din hai bahaar ke
Geet mere hothon pe aane lage pyar ke

20 ksbhatia September 29, 2016 at 12:12 am

AK ji;
Thanks for the perfect twenty wrap up of the 1949 ‘s Lata ji songs. It took me some time to go thru the post ….to find if any of her golden period song has been left out …..and ultimately had to give up as all the songs are popular and well graded. Well individual choice will all ways be there as to which one is topper of the top. To each his own policy will always be there when the call is too close .

Like Nasreen I too feel ….Mujhe kisi se pyar ho gaya ..or…barsaat mein …edged little better than…hawa mein udta jaye . While naushad’s beautiful Piano interludes dominated Lata’s melodious Andaz songs , Shankar jaikishan on the other hand composed beautiful Pahadi compositions making beautiful interludes using Flutes and Violins in the two songs mentioned above , hence the preference over hawa mein udta jaye . But over all I am satisfied with the final outcome.

21 Jignesh Kotadia September 29, 2016 at 12:17 am

this was expected in top twenty !

7. Ghir ghir ke aai badariya saajanva na jaa
Rote hai nain baanwre inhen samjha jaa
( Ek thi ladki, Vinod
and what abt Lara Lappa )

22 Jignesh Kotadia September 29, 2016 at 12:33 am

8. Teri is do rangi duniya men
koi khush kismat koi bad kismat
(Saavan Bhaado, HBLal)

9. Shikwa na karenge na shikayat ae zamana
shikayat na karenge

10. Ek hi tha jagat men sahara
na raha ab to wo bhi hamara
(both from ZEVRAAT, HBahal )

23 Jignesh Kotadia September 29, 2016 at 12:47 am

exactly on 7th december 2012 i was searching for Lata songs of 1949. I put the words ” lata songs list 1949 ” in google and in results i found a link : My favourite Lata Mangeshkar songs for C Ramchandra | Songs Of Yore
with a great interest generated by the title i clicked the link……and the rest ….. is still not history…

24 Mahesh September 29, 2016 at 1:07 am

AK ji,
Like quite a few of your readers, I too for some moments played the guessing game in my mind regarding the title and content of today’s post.
Then, I let it go, for you always have something special.
Many Thanks for the post.
I have one query. Did Lata sing for 3 or 4 actors in Barsaat 1949 ?

I can easily club about a dozen in your 20 for the first rank itself.
As I have said discussions about the songs of 1949 can never end.
Even after having Lata’s songs separated from the rest, we still cannot settle for the top 10 or even 20.
It speaks volumes of a phenomena called Lata Mangeshkar. Period.

25 AK September 29, 2016 at 6:34 am

Nasreen,
KS Bhatiaji has also endorsed your views on Mujhe kisi se pyar ho gaya. As the film opens with Hawa mein udta jaye, it sends a pleasant sensation in the viewers. SJ magic, their unique orchestration bursts for the first time on the screen. But, these are matters of personal choice.

I read it somewhere that she has been held to have the purest voice ever.

Mumbaikar8, Subodh, Giri,
Thanks a lot for your appreciation.

Ashwin,
Thanks a lot for your appreciation.

Lata Mangeshkar insisting on royalty was not seen as altruistic that time, and that image still persists putting her to unfair comparison with Rafi who was seen as selfless.

Jignesh,
Many of the songs you have listed are new to me. I have to go through them at leisure.

It is interesting that her 1949 songs brought you to SoY. I am not wrong in saying that these songs created history.

Ashok Kumar Tyagiji,
Thanks a lot for your appreciation.

KS Bhatiaji,
Thanks a lot for your appreciation, and for your explanation of Mujhe kisi se pyar ho gaya. I have already explained my reasons in response to Nasreen.

Mahesh,
Thanks a lot for your appreciation.

Bimla, Nimmi, Nargis – who was the fourth? Did Bimla ‘sing’ any other song in films?

26 D P Rangan September 29, 2016 at 7:03 am

AK
You have raised the bar on your own presentation and your analysis and final outpourings are really beyond mere praise. I also join the band wagon in wishing happy birthday greetings for the great soprano and request you to send a collective greeting on behalf of all of us from SoY.

Jignesh You expect people to search for songs. Here is the you tube link for your songs numberwise.

01 – Lyrist – I C Kapoor. https://youtu.be/5Jm7LpqWqq8
02 – Lyrist: Sarshar Sailani https://youtu.be/SBNJs3hprxI
03 – Lyrist – Prem Dhyawan https://youtu.be/A34m_5IIzds
Another from Jeet :
Hans le gale : https://youtu.be/yggE7X9lzx0
Paaras – Shakeel Badauni
04 – https://youtu.be/qDGmsukMkoc
05 – https://youtu.be/aPNCJ7g3nCY
06 – https://youtu.be/80HPWSre-Rw

27 D P Rangan September 29, 2016 at 7:18 am

07 – Aziz Kashmiri – https://youtu.be/cgLsPgMeBsQ
Lata solo : Dillise aaya bai – https://youtu.be/5QjecA39RdU

08 – https://youtu.be/HO2RbaJpC9g (Mulkraj Bhakri)
09 – https://youtu.be/P1CmMRH7kBo (Habeeb Sarhadi lyrist)
10 – https://youtu.be/WNNNg7KEM2c ( do )
Chale Aao Mujhe – https://youtu.be/y4-6Q1gVVdE
Ja Tere muqdar – https://youtu.be/f9EsrD0wN0g

28 Anu Warrier September 29, 2016 at 8:14 am

@AK, I’m sure the middle portion was also written well; it’s just that statistical analyses or numbers hold no interest to me.

Bimla Kumari had two other famous songs to lip-synch – Dheere se aana bhagiyan mein from Albela; as also Meri jaan, o meri jaan from Sahib Bibi aur Ghulam.
Re: Royalties: Lata may not have been altruistic, but I don’t see why she should be. Recording companies were minting money off the performers’ talent; why shouldn’t she ask for royalties? Where I think people overlook her contribution is, as Ashwin says, the fight was not only for her – it benefited every singer of the age and those who came after. The same way that Sahir fought to have the lyricists recognised. Can anyone deny that that gave lyricists greater leverage to charge a decent amount of money?

Rafi was a saint, as Lata herself referred to him with great respect, and his choice was different, but that still does not make Lata a sinner for taking on the might of the recording companies. I think we (general ‘we’) have a sort of bias against anybody who is seen as ‘money-hungry’. I wonder how many of us would like to work for a pittance, when the fruits of our labour are being enjoyed by others. 🙂

Nasreen, touché! 🙂

I’m glad to see the love for Mujhe kisise pyar ho gaya – I love that song, much more than I do Hawa mein udta jaaye. I also love your description of what the song makes you feel.

29 AK September 29, 2016 at 10:10 am

DP Rangan,
Thanks a lot for your generous words.

Great work in giving links to Jignesh’s songs. Now he would stop claiming that he is the youngest in the group with a seventy-plus going on seventeen.

30 AK September 29, 2016 at 10:16 am

Anu,
Thanks a lot for giving other songs of Bimla Kumari. Another question was if there was a fourth lady for whom Lata Mangeshkar sang a song.

I think Lata’s image problem because of royalty issue has to do with Indian culture of looking down upon money (and secretly coveting it!). During Nehruvian socialism, businessmen and capitalists were rapacious money-makers, who enriched themselves with the the blood and sweat of the poor. Any association with them made a person tainted. Now the society has come to acknowledge them as people who create jobs and wealth to the society.

31 Nasreen September 29, 2016 at 11:11 am

Thanks AK. I feel honoured to have my thoughts endorsed by anyone and at least three people here have done that re my suggested song. Nice 🙂
Thanks KS Bhatiaji, Ashwin Bhandarkar and Anu Warrier.
Having said that, Hawa mein is also a lovely and lyrical song and akin to its opening word, is like a breath of fresh air.

32 Nasreen September 29, 2016 at 11:13 am

Anu: thank you for your comments 🙂

33 Dinesh K Jain September 29, 2016 at 11:38 am

AK, another great write-up, on a truly great theme.

Having now listened to the newly discovered songs suggested by Jignesh, I realise that Lata had many more beautiful songs in the year than ever before appreciated. Maybe each of her songs was a gem. Only some became more popular than others because of the movies and the situations. No wonder she came through in 1949 as a tsunami. Her voice at that time also had a childlike innocence, besides a musical sweetness lacking until then in Hindi film music. I will say that I could never find Noorjahan, the reigning queen till then, as anything special.

But having said the above, two personal quibbles. In my opinion and taste, the best songs from Andaz and Barsat were Tod diya dil mera and Barsat mein humse mile tum, and not only the best Lata songs. Surprisingly neither you nor any others have mentioned these at all. Tod diya dil mera…! But no worry, these remain the best.

34 Jignesh Kotadia September 29, 2016 at 1:21 pm

DPRanganji
thank u very much for presenting the links.
actually it is a tedious work for me to search and paste links in a lateral recumbent position and while working on a mobile in late night. 🙂

AKji
yes you r right
i salute our legends DPRanganji and KSBhatiaji for their untiring efforts.

Dineshji
the problem for some songs is their available poor audio quality. It makes too much difference. A Song with Poor audio quality doesnt make enough impact on our tympani, otherwise almost all songs of that era are high class.

listen this one from Nayi taalim , Vasant Desai
based on some English tune.

Aa gai bahaar….aa gayi
man ki kali muskaai
nas nas men jaga pyar, jaga pyar

35 Jignesh Kotadia September 29, 2016 at 1:25 pm

Lata, Nayi Taalim, Vasant Desai

Aa gayi bahaar..aa gayi
https://youtu.be/QIdD7xgYEFo

36 Shalan Lal September 29, 2016 at 2:31 pm

Jignesh Kotadia @ 2

About “Aayega” song it certainly is very good. But comparing with other songs the voice of Lata though has created enough mystery and mysticism that the film required I think it is a more Music Director’s song than a singer’s song. It is his skills with other instruments along with Lata’s voice as an instrument and superb lyric by Nakhshab are dominating.
The order is right as it is.
I would further say that instead of Lata’s voice Rajkumari’s or Geeta Roy’s would have done the same effect. But with other songs Lata with her voice and acting skills in the voice is present and that made the songs memorable and successful. This is my personal opinion and have not worked out proper theory about sweet voice against the skills in singing and theory of music.
Shalan Lal

37 AK September 29, 2016 at 2:35 pm

Dinesh,
Thanks a lot for your appreciation. On Lata Mangeshkar versus Noorjehan, I had done a long piece some years back, which you might have seen. To be fair, till then Noorjehan was considered superior. Later, most of us believe that even if she had stayed on, Lata Mangeshkar would have stolen a march over her.

About your preferred songs, you have rightly said it is a matter of personal taste.

38 ksbhatia September 29, 2016 at 2:36 pm

MsMumbaikar 8 , Nasreen , AK ‘ji ;

Lata ji in Barsaat had a variety of happy , sad and emotionally rich songs which were a delight for the listeners . In fact it is a great journey of emotions when one listen to all the songs in a sequence Like AK ji stated the freshness and feel of the air thru …hawa mein udta jaye…in the opening song gradually picking up the romance with….mujhe kisi se pyar hogaya…..to lady in the waiting…..jiya bekarar hai…..togradual diminishing of closeness…..barsaat mein hum se mele tum, der na kar kahin yeh aas toot jaye…..to ultimate separation…..ab mera kaun sahara . Even in duet with Mukesh……patli kamar hai, Lata ji’s superb emotional rendering in …tujh bin naino ki barsaatein rok na paaon lakh manaun…..stands apart in many comparison to other songs .

I think same can be said of Naushad’s songs in Andaz where Lata ji too excelled in all the format of songs.

39 AK September 29, 2016 at 2:59 pm

KS Bhatiaji,
Nice analysis. It seems discussion on 1949 is focussed mainly on Ayega aanewala and her songs for Andaz and Barsaat. But other songs composed by Anil Biswas, Shyam Sundar, Husnlal-Bhagatram and C Ramchandra I have listed are also truly exceptional and timeless.

40 Anu Warrier September 29, 2016 at 6:36 pm

AK, Lata did sing for four women in Barsaat. Nargis, Nimmi, Bimla Kumari and Cuckoo (Patli kamar hai, tirchhi nazar hai).

41 N Venkataraman September 29, 2016 at 9:55 pm

Akji,
Let me join the discussion. I may not be adding any new inputs and may even be replication.

In 1949, the Hindi film music scenario witnessed a phenomenal change. It was an avalanche that swept everything that came its way.Three essential factors can be attributed to this; the coming of age of Lata Mangeshkar, the development of playback and recording techniques, around this period. All the top female singers then had heavier voices. Lata Mangeshkar’s voice, high-pitched and technically perfect, created the magic that was compatible and conducive to these developments, and the third, departure of Noor Jahan for Pakistan. Lata Mangeshkar brought about a paradigm shift in the concept of the ideal female voice. Every MD wanted her as their leading female voice.

In 1948 there was an inkling of this change. Between 1945 and 1947, she must have rendered around 10 songs for Vasant Desai, Datta Koregaonkar, Datta Davjekar and Tufail Farooqi. In 1948, she was singing for Anil Biswas, Ghulam Haider and Khemchand Prakash. She had around 50 + songs out of which 60% were rendered for them.

LataMangeshkar must have rendered around 150 songs (more than 100 solos) in about 40 films for 18/19 MDs in the year 1949. She was singing for Naushad and C Ramchandra and also for Anil Biswas, Khemchand Prakash and Vasant Desai. The Punjab brigade too were fully behind her, Husnlal-Bhagatram, Hansraj Behl, Shyam Sundar, Pt. Govind Ram and Vinod composed wonderful songs for her.

You covered 8 of them in your selection of 20 songs. Thanks to Jignesh, he posted few more enjoyable songs of Pt.Govind Ram, Ghulam Mohammad and Vinod. I too, like Jignesh, expected the song Ghir ghir ke aai badariya in the top twenty. You mentioned Vasant Desai’s song from Nayi Talim. A nice addition. Let me add few more.

Here is a song that Lata Mangeshkar sang for Nashad. I do not think anybody has mentioned this song.
Aa Bhi Ja, Aa Bhi Ja O Aanewale, film Aaiye, lyrics Nakhshab Jaaravchi, music Shaukat Haidari Nashad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXmNOeHi3ZE

It is quite interesting to find that Husnlal-Bhagtram had used the tune of Chup chup khade ho zaroor koi baat hai for another song for the film Rakhi in the same year. Probably the song of Rakhi preceded that of Bade bahan and they reworked on the tune and orchestration for Badi Behan.
Dil kisi ne cheen liya, film Rakhi 1949, lyrics Sarshar Sailani, music Husnlal-Bhagatram
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2LtOQ8nawc

Another song which I believe was composed by Anil Biswas, Any way it was a Lata Mangeshkar song of 1949.
Kuch Sharmate Hue Naye Raste Pe Rakha Hai Maine, film Girls School (1949), lyrics Kavi Pradeep, music Anil Biswas
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8tt7SHtFgg

Another favourite of mine, probably Maheshji had mentioned it earlier.
Aaj Zindagi Ke Band Dwar Khul Gaye, film Uddhar (1949), lyrics Narendra Sharma, music Vasant Desai
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGeuCsOTmBQ

42 AK September 30, 2016 at 12:16 am

Venkataramanji,
Your analysis virtually covers all the possible reasons. Looking in retrospect, Noorjehan’s departure was not such a major factor. Lata Mangeshkar was destined to become the Pole Star.

Lata’s 20 at 20 for 8 MDs are part of our immortal legacy. That the readers are still insatiated, and they would like to include still some more shows the scale of her dominance.

Ghir ghir ke aaye badariya is a great song. Among the songs added by Jignesh and you, there are several excellent songs. I especially like Chale aao chale aao chale aaoji.

HB’s repetitiveness is legion. In your example, not only the orchestration is repeated but also the phrase “pahli mulaqat”. Similarly, in Jignesh’s example of Teri is do rangi duniya mein, there is a phrase “koi khushqismat koi badqismat” that reminds you of “koi yahan gira koi wahan gira”.

43 Jignesh Kotadia September 30, 2016 at 12:54 am

Shalanji
i appreciate your explanation. Aayega Aanewala would have been a superhit even with Rajkumari or Geeta Dutt…KP’s instrumentation and the lyrics had a big role in it’s huge success..but i can say Lata’s once a millenium voice has lifted the final product’s success to a mega hit level.
Apart from a completely trained voice she had the qualities of innocence and girlishness in her voice that suited on our onscreen teenager heroines so perfectly….
and what a miracle she has done !!
She sang Mujhe kisi se pyar ho gaya for Nargis in 1949 and sang the same feelings with same impact for Kareena Kapoor in Bewafa, 2005 ( Kaise piya se main kahun mujhe kitna pyar hai..aankhon ko intezaar hai dil beqaraar hai ) after 55 years !!! is this believable ??

44 Jignesh Kotadia September 30, 2016 at 1:02 am

Venkataramanji
Aaj zindagi ke band dwar khul gaye is really a treat.
along with it i got two very good songs from Uddhar
1. Basanti phool khile and 2. Raat jaa rahi hai, neend aa rahi hai.

45 D P Rangan September 30, 2016 at 6:31 am

@44
Song No. 2, Narendra Sharma, Vasant Desai
https://youtu.be/s6oz78j96Es

46 Jignesh Kotadia September 30, 2016 at 11:10 am
47 Shalan Lal September 30, 2016 at 3:25 pm

Jignesh Kotadia @ 43

Thanksfor your comment. Although Lata’s voice is once in a millenium and so is Asha’s as well, but at the time of the 1949 people did not come to realize it. In fact people loved the songs but hardly knew who the singer was. AK has mentioned all that in his “Oeuvre ” of the present post. Now we knew that there were many more MDs came to use her voice and Lata was willing and energetic person to do the singing for so many films. Only those films which are mentioned in the AK’s study seemed to have got good reception from the filmgoers.

The film Barasaat “outshone” the film Andaz mainly because the songs of the film. But acting and storyline was also good. All that added up. Similar thing happened to the “Mahal” as well. For the film goers 1949 became a “Bonanza” of sheer joy. And going to see the films and listening to the filmy songs also became sociailly accepted fashion. All these things helped Lata later on to become a “Super Girle” of singing voice.

I used to see Suraiya a couple of decade before she died. In one of our conversation she mentioned that “Lata” would not see her mediator as Lata felt Suraiya was responsible for her a period of lost voice after the film “Badi Bahen”. She said she did not do anything like that and wanted to clear the matter.

A few years back I went to a Lecture of a Hollywood voice traner in Hollywood. He was a doctor of Voice regularly employed by the Hollywood stars. In his lecture he mentioend that if the singings voice is used too much a period comes to the the singsr that the singing voice gets fatigued and loses. After a long slow training, the vocal folds get repaired.

I think that’s what exactly happened to Lata, looking at her out put of the songs. But to tell that to Suraiya was not possible she was dead by then.

Lata recovered from her loss of voice and went on producing songs in thousands and that is a miracle and should be treated as eighth wonder and Asha’s voice could be nineth wonder.

We are lucky and the SoY gives us to re-examine the history of Hindi film songs. We are forever indebted to AK.

Shalan Lal

48 Siddharth September 30, 2016 at 6:36 pm

AKji,
What a wonderful way to accomplish a tough task!!
All the songs listed here and the ones missing are the among the all time great songs.
This tsunami has given so much joy to everyone and I guess in 1949 people would have felt like this – (Ghalib again)

gulshan ko tirī ṣuḥbat az baskih ḳhvush āʾī hai
har ġhunche kā gul honā āġhosh-kushāʾī hai

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00ghalib/185/185_01.html

49 AK September 30, 2016 at 6:43 pm

Siddharth,
Thanks a lot for your appreciation. Translation of Ghalib needed.

50 Siddharth September 30, 2016 at 6:57 pm
51 Mayur vachharajani September 30, 2016 at 9:47 pm

Sir,
Impressed
Very much impressed with this series of songs from 1949
Intoxicated.

52 D P Rangan September 30, 2016 at 10:21 pm

AK

Link to song No. 3 from Lahore. A live video

https://youtu.be/vsziuRkqLdU

The link does not work in USA. Hope it does in India.

53 D P Rangan September 30, 2016 at 10:58 pm

Song No. 8 Live video. The one given does not work

https://youtu.be/c3nExM8xqmE

Song No. 11 https://youtu.be/BbibT90WWBA

Song No. 17 https://youtu.be/Fm87fGL4reE

54 D P Rangan October 1, 2016 at 12:19 am

Laadli (1949) Anil Biswas

Aath roz ki Chutti (Nazim Panipatti)
https://youtu.be/-_bf2AaOgI4
Kaise Kahdoon (Nazim Panipatti)
https://youtu.be/bDMgbpe48co

55 D P Rangan October 1, 2016 at 12:24 am

A few songs of 1949

Dil ki Basti (1949) Waheeda Quereshi, Ghulam Mohammad
Aag lage jag https://youtu.be/7OlEbTZdDcg

Shair (1949) Shakeel Badauni, Ghulam Mohammad
Tere kayal ko dil https://youtu.be/OZzLXG1Gqgg
Tu door hai aankhon se https://youtu.be/xkYoPKMPONI

Namoona (1949) C Ramchandra
Ek tez Lagi (Nakshab Jaaravchi) https://youtu.be/WRNYrfPK_bk
Aji Sambhal ke (P L Santoshi) https://youtu.be/AA_auaUaGuE
Maari Ghali (P L Santoshiu) https://youtu.be/8EBNEkxX3KU
Mujkho Sajayen (Raja Mehdi Ali Khan)
https://youtu.be/aYQ5xXJQooU

56 Jignesh Kotadia October 1, 2016 at 12:48 am

Siddharthji

अपने लब-ए-कामिल से आप का
बज़्म को नग़्मानूमा करना मुझे याद है
फीर मेरा हर लफ़्ज़-ए-अदक़ का
गूगल में तरजूमा करना मुझे याद है 🙂

Shalanji
thanks for connecting again. You people have seen the sequences of golden era very closely..so, perhaps truth lies more proximal to your explanations..any further argument in this context from me would be lacking maturity.

57 Shalan Lal October 1, 2016 at 2:58 pm

Jignesh K @ 56
Thanks for your comment.
I should think that even though you have not seen the period of 1949 you have a good right to make comment on it as your birthright according to your understanding of the songs, and the period and other areas as well.

I have not seen the early period of the New Theatres, Prabhat, Bombay Talkies etc but whatever there knowledge is available I make comment according to my ability.

I do not know about the Indian History but I make the comments. I was not in the period when Gandhi was a dominating figure but going thorugh the available material I have got a point of view and I believe that you too have and you should express without being cowed down by other people’s views. This is the progress of Democracy.

In my comment about the Lata’s lost voice period I learned it from Suraiya and she was very much hurt by the accusation Lata made. It seems during that period other people became hostile to Suraiya and she also got sick of the filmy world and politics.

This is a living world we live in it and we as human beings should try to understand it.

Shalan Lal

58 Siddharth October 1, 2016 at 3:27 pm

Jignesh @ 56,

अपने सुउरत-ए-हाल पर वो आप की
क़लम से निकले हुए जज़्बात याद है
हम को अब तक वो आप की
नक़्द-ए-शेर-ओ-सुख़न की सौगात याद है 🙂

59 ASHOK M VAISHNAV October 1, 2016 at 4:33 pm

1949 is the year where both pro- Lata and Pro-other than Lata fans can have their field day reeling off song after song in support of their claims.
If one looks at numbers – solos and duets – then the coin would seem to turn up Lata or Others equal number of times. But, as it goes, those who put their bets on Lata did seem to garner bigger share of the stakes.
That is why it was (and in fact, is) being said that Lata Mangeshkar’s day had come.
And 1949, was the clarion call, in deed.

60 KB October 1, 2016 at 7:32 pm

1949 was a great year with almost all the topnotch composers at their best and melody at its peak. Excellent discussions on the topic and is a pleasure to interact.

61 Jignesh Kotadia October 2, 2016 at 1:45 am

Siddhathji
kya baat hai…subhanallah

Shalanji
thanks for ur kind words in #5
i couldnt clearly understand from your comment 47 why Lata blamed Suraiya for her overstretched voice !!

62 AK October 2, 2016 at 12:39 pm

Mayur Vachharajani,
Welcome to SoY and thanks a lot for your appreciation.

63 AK October 2, 2016 at 12:49 pm

Anu,
I think in Patli kamar hai, Lata Mangeshkar’s voice in sad tone goes for Nimmi. Cuckoo, though dances, she does not sing a song.

64 Shalan Lal October 2, 2016 at 5:32 pm

Jignesh Kotadiya @ 61

It was alleged that something was put in Lata’s cup of tea at a recording breake-time. In th eold time recording was done after the good rehersals with musicians and some times it would take eight hours or more.

I attended one recording of the song in the film “Muze Jine Do”. that started in the morning and went on upto the the evening. This was the case of one song only.

Nowadays the orchestration etc are done on various channels of the electronic computer machine and whne the singer like Lata is invited to the studio her voice is recorded and then various pieces of the music are added. The voice of the singer is also divided according to the need of the MD on the computer.

Added effects are also joined.

Lata would have been very happy of modern times as she could have done more singiing inone day starting from morning until thebed time.

Shalan Lal

65 Shalan Lal October 2, 2016 at 5:44 pm

AK @ 37
Your comment: “On Lata Mangeshkar versus Noorjehan, I had done a long piece some years back, which you might have seen. To be fair, till then Noorjehan was considered superior. Later, most of us believe that even if she had stayed on, Lata Mangeshkar would have stolen a march over her”
Yes indeed! However one needs to know more about Noorjehan’s popularity and her reality in her contribution of the period 1943-1947 in comparison with other voices like Amir Karantaki etc.
I enjoy Noorjehan of her Indian times more than her Pakistan time. However I enjoy other female voices from Khajanchi onwards. The reason I am mentioning this is perhaps Noorjehan was blowed up too much of her time in India against the other singers at the same time. I do not think Noorjehan in India did the playback singing. But Lata’s playback singing gave boost to the MDs to use playback singing more than using the voices of the singing actors.
Hence the playback singing became a very important part in the fifties and music in the films dominated until late seventies.
Shalan La

66 Shalan Lal October 2, 2016 at 5:53 pm

Mumbaikar 8 @ 11
“At times I question what would I had done walking or driving without the songs from 50’s and 60’s”

“The answer would that “You would be concentrating on your driving more while behind the wheel and while walking in the park concentrating on the natural beauty, and indoorr while doing domestic jobs you would be doing better, for exaple you would not be putting salt in the tea cup or sugar in your soup.”

Take this as “Chhed Chhad” as you remarked me that I am too formal in thecomments of the “Chhed Chhad Songs.

How’s that?

Shalan Lal

67 Shalan Lal October 3, 2016 at 5:28 pm

“Lataji in Barsaat had a variety of happy, sad and emotionally rich songs which were a delight for the listeners”

I very much like your theory of emotional journey in the gradual development in the songs. It is very rich appraisal of RK’s production and design of the film. I believe RK was just twenty five or so at his age of the “Barasaat”. A Very good angle and a very intellectual contribution to the discussion!

It is time now that you should do your own post to bring out your various ideas of appreciation of the films, songs and other elements etc.
A very good innovation of the point of view!

Shalan La

68 Shalan Lal October 3, 2016 at 5:35 pm

AK @ 25
“Lata Mangeshkar insisting on royalty was not seen as altruistic that time, and that image still persists putting her to unfair comparison with Rafi who was seen as selfless”

My Comment: It is alright the copyright was enforced for Lata and other singers. But was it extended to Lyric Writers and other music providers even the various strange sounds were used to accompany the song? I do not think so.

A song is not just made of a singer’s voice. And the Indian filmy songs are not private property of the singers.

These unusual artists would appear in the studio with their bags and boxes of music al or sound makeing tools while MDs would direct them where to come in the song. Apart from payment on the spot and free pass at the launching of the film they would get nothing.

Shalan La

69 Shalan Lal October 3, 2016 at 5:57 pm

Anu W @ 8
Comment
“I abhor the depiction of Lata as a manipulative, deceitful, selfish person. Not that you or any of your readers did so. This is just something that I have been thinking about for some time. I think we take great pleasure in building our idols up and then pulling them apart with unholy glee. Lata is neither saint nor sinner – she is, like all of us, a flawed human. How about we just let her be, and enjoy the talent with which she’s entertained us for decades? No one can deny that she is one of the greatest singers to have graced at least our lifetimes”

My Comment:
It is fascinating to see that a Goddess is brought down to our level in the above comment. Granted that we poor earthly wretch are all susceptible to sins and acts of immorality. Question is would the Goddess see that she is human as we are. It was said that the mighty Caesar was always reminded by a priest now and then “Caesar your only mortal!”

“Lata and her family believe that they are divine!” I drew this remark from one of her interviews

Shalan Lal

70 Shalan Lal October 3, 2016 at 6:01 pm

The comment number 67 is addressed to ksbhatia’s comment @ number 38.

Some how his heading name and number was missed out. Sorry for it.

Shalan Lal

71 AK October 3, 2016 at 10:00 pm

Shalan,
Apportionment of copyright of a Hindi film song is a very complex subject. Apart from legality and equity, commerce and market clout would inevitably come into the picture. A Sahir Ludhiyanavi would demand and get more than X, this is not amenable to legal framework. Lata Mangeshkar’s was on a similar footing. She earned huge money from her live shows all over the world. The songs were not her creation, she gave only her voice to it. I don’t think she shared her earnings with real creators, such as MDs, lyricists or the record companies.

Lyricists have been left out, not because they don’t have a moral case, but because other stakeholders are more powerful.

Now a new set of claimants have thrown their hat into the ring – heroes such as Amir Khan. One can think of many songs you would associate with Amitabh Bachchan rather than Kishore Kumar, and so on. A day may come when they get the major portion of the songs’ royalty. In a way they are already getting in another way by expropriating a huge part of the film’s budget as their fees.

72 Mahesh October 3, 2016 at 11:48 pm

Anu ji @40 and AK ji,

Thanks for this confirmation of 3 and not 4 actors on whom the playback was sung by Lata in Barsaat.

To further my point, SJ in their very first film called upon a relatively new singer to sing for 3 actors in an era when playback was not completely developed and more importantly when having different singers for different actors in the same film was the norm.

However when we talk of Lata ji’s beginning we tend to talk about Ghulam Haider saab’s trust and correct prediction, Anil Biswas’s breath controlling techniques, Naushad’s grooming etc.

When we talk of her entire singing career as a whole we often discuss about Madan Mohan, Anilda, CR, Naushad, LP etc. Even though people acknowledge the collaboration with SJ, for some reason it is not brought to the forefront or given prominence which it very much deserves.

73 ksbhatia October 4, 2016 at 1:00 am

Ms. Shalan Lal; #67

Thanks for encouragement and appreciation . Truely emotional journey thru songs in Barsaat is a marvelous feeling . You are stuck to the path and wish for more. In fact, as you also feel , it was the outcome of the RK’s great team work . Every one doing their first assignment and hence putting up their very best. Besides its music the lyrics of the songs were fresh and meaningful that helped the smooth narration of its story. Of course the Director is the captain of the ship and deserve all the praise for its design values .

It may be observed that this trend of sequential treatment of story thru songs also continued in RK’s other productions like Awaara , Aah , Boot polish and Shree 420 ; with some excellent directional touches in picturising songs . For Raj kapoor it was not just that you start filming a song from prelude to postlude only. He had a unique style of filming a song with preamble as additional musical piece before the prelude of the song ; and end the song likewise . This helped in cohesive and smooth narration of the story / screenplay .

I have two examples that are coming in my mind , both from Shree 420.

1. Pyaar hua ekrar hua hai…….

Preamble sitaar music , sybolising megh / malhaar and serving as background music for the romantic situation before the mandolin/ guitar prelude sybolising rain drops and song follows their after.

2. Ramiya vastaviya……

Here a loud club dance number is played for nearly two minutes as preamble that shows the howel of life of the rich and bad people . RK with his scarry expressions leaves the society and a door is shown open for him to brace the old world charm . The background music switch over to happy desi song as soon as raj enter the old street .

Full marks goes to Shankar Jaikishan for creating beautiful background pieces appropriate to the screenplay and direction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rW72kDrJvwA

74 AK October 4, 2016 at 8:12 am

Mahesh,
That is the price of being too successful.

75 Shalan Lal October 4, 2016 at 3:35 pm

ksbhatia @73

What you wrote about RK’s “Palla” or prowess i.e outstanding or superior skill or ability in making his films a complete audio visual art of beauty is amazing. It must have been in him for a decade before he got access in the films.

I hope you will take one of his films and like AK do the retrospective review of it from your angle. It will enrich my understanding of RK as he was truly unique director and I may say that he was a far to better than the past directors like those of the New Theatres or Shantaram of Prabhat and Rajkamal or Chopra Bros and Bimal Roy etc.

Thanks for your present comment. It is very good.

Shalan La

76 Shalan Lal October 4, 2016 at 3:46 pm

Mahesh @ 72

Your point is vey intresting and well brought in.

I heard about the production cost of Barasaat was in total of some thousands that is due to finaciars did not believe RK duetohisfirst film “Aag” failed at the Box office.

I also heard that he paid Lata only 75 ruppees for all the singing of the songs. Lata during this time wanted to get out of her poverty line life and she agree towhatever money she got from the directors or often from the MDs as they were given budget for thier work.

Only after the immense success of Barsaat she got confidence and money in thousands for each song. She moved from her poor accomodation to posh Peddar Road house. Singing paid her and many classical Khan Saheb became angry with her rich earning.
She had a ball of life!
Shalan Lal

77 Shalan Lal October 4, 2016 at 3:53 pm

AK@ 71

You have put the finger right on the Tsunami. I think Indian Parliament now needs to step in and put new frame work of the laws how the film artists/workers should earn the money instead of just chasing them for “IncomeTax” dodging.

I fully agree with you and thanks for bringing the statement at the right time. Readers should see the reality now.

Shalan La

78 Siddharth October 4, 2016 at 6:39 pm

AKji,
Another aspect of the top 20 songs chosen is that about 80% of them fall in sad/melancholic category conveying the message similar to –

fir kuchch is dil ko beqaraaree hai
seena zoya-e-zaKHm-e-kaaree hai

fir usee bewafa pe marte haiN
fir wohee zindagee hamaaree hai

But hearing them does not make one feel miserable, in fact its quite the contrary. There is sweetness attached to them, credit to the people behind their creation. There must be some psychology behind this.
It is rightly said –
Hain sabse madhur wo geet jinhe ham dard ke sur main gaate hain.

79 Dinesh K Jain October 4, 2016 at 6:47 pm

Siddharth, a very apt comment, embellished with beautiful lines! (What does “zoya-e-zakhm-e-kaaree ” mean?)
The songs are melancholic but beautiful because we know that the separation was only transitory and the lovers will all eventually be united – though I am not sure if to live happily forever.

80 Siddharth October 4, 2016 at 7:01 pm

Dineshji,
“zoya-e-zakhm-e-kaaree” means eager for a deep wound.
The below link gives a good explanation –
http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00ghalib/164/164_01.html

You have rightly said that there is hope of coming together again, which does not let things get miserable.

81 SSW October 4, 2016 at 7:06 pm

Siddharth it is said that Shailendra wrote this inspired by Shelley’s Ode to a Skylark where the lines are

We look before and after,
And pine for what is not:
Our sincerest laughter
With some pain is fraught;
Our sweetest songs are those that tell of saddest thought.

But the Ode ends with

Better than all measures
Of delightful sound,
Better than all treasures
That in books are found,
Thy skill to poet were, thou scorner of the ground!

Teach me half the gladness
That thy brain must know,
Such harmonious madness
From my lips would flow
The world should listen then, as I am listening now.

So I must confess my favourite Lata song from Dulari is a mundanely happy song .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8Hia6u2nTg

82 Siddharth October 4, 2016 at 7:59 pm

SSWji,
Thanks for reminding this lovely poem.
The use of words “harmonious madness” is wonderful.
Shailendra was definitely inspired by this and the song he wrote was full of such antithesis like –

jab gham ka andheraa ghir aaye,
samjho ke saveraa door nahin,

pahloo mein paraaye dard basaake,
hansnaa hansaanaa seekh zaraa,

The song you posted is fabulous and my favourite as well. In fact I feel Dulari is Naushad’s best work.

Did Shailendra named his son after Shelley?

83 Hans October 5, 2016 at 1:44 am

AK,
Sorry, I am very late, but would try to make up by posting on various interesting points raised by various stalwarts.

Firstly, I would say Lata is your horizon so there is hardly any dispute likely about the selection of songs. I would only add that Ghulam Mohammad whom you give so much of respect has been ignored. According to me, his two solos in Shair posted by Ranganji were fit to be included even in the top ten of her songs. The whole music of Shair, for me is great and can compete with the best. But, the list is of your likes, so no quarrels.

Regarding the pie chart of singers, I would say that it is your pie chart based on your selections. I would point out just one fact. The film Shair (music Ghulam Mohammad) had four songs in which Lata participated (two solos and two duets) out of which you have included three in your 1949 list. Suraiya had 5 solos – all great as per me – and you included none. By this manoeuvre you can put Lata anywhere. Suraiya acted in 11 films in 1949 and 4 of them have not even one song in your list. In 2 or 3 others you have listed just one out of 5/6/7 songs. I would say that Suraiya alone, though see was not a playback singer, would overshadow Lata’s 33 in your list if her best out of her total of 53 solos are listed.

You have said so much about the impact of ‘aayega aanewala’ and the listeners demanding to know who the singers is and that this led to the singers’ names being added from Barsaat onwards. You are truely writing like an adoring fan, but the facts are not true. Firstly, in Barsaat there was no mention of singers in credit titles. Even if that had been the case, it would have been wrong that it was the fallout of ‘aayega aanewala’. The film Mahal, though listed in 1949 in HKGK, was released in 1950. This was brought to notice perhaps by Arunji somewhere and you had said that you are taking it as shown in HFGK. To say that listeners of that era were not aware about the singers’ names is to belittle their knowledge. Perhaps we internet using people have begun to believe that we are the only ones with all the knowledge and earlier people had no means of acquiring knowledge. In that era also there were magazines, and newspapers and they sold very cheap booklets outside cinema halls containing all the info including lyrics and brief story. Every cinema hall also advertised the films being shown with a lot of info through loudspeakers and posters.

The practice of using the character’s name on record was all the legacy of the contract era when every one sang his/her song and the list of singers was also not given. This had to start some day. And by the way, who cared for the names in credit titles. These credit titles have eternally been in English, and in the old era literacy was very low and knowledge of English was perhaps not more than 2-3 percent. I remember when I started to watch films in cinema halls in mid sixties, I found that common people knew about the names of the smallest characters – though they never cared to see credit titles – and I owe it to them that I came to know about these things through them, because I never cared to see the credit titles myself.

Regarding your statement that Shamshad was shocked to find herself singing for Cuckoo, that also comes from the assumption that things were like that in the era prior to Lata. This concept of singing either for the heroine or the senior artist was started by Lata herself after she found her footing, which Asha also followed up. Earlier playback singers never cared for such things. Male singers of the golden era also did not care for this. Only Talat was egoistic about only singing for the hero, because he considered himself more a star than a singer. The result was that he lost out on variety and was cooling his heals within 4-5 years of a great start.

Even otherwise, Shamshad was not the only choice for Naushad. He was frequently changing singers. Shamshad was brought in only in 1946 and was only a peripheral singer for the first two years. In fact, she was the lead singer only in 1948 for Naushad. Of her 62 songs (as given in Naushadnama) for Naushad, she had sung just 18 songs (13 of which came in 1948) upto end of 1948 and the remaining came after advent of Lata. In fact, till 1951 Shamshad was almost on equal footing with Lata in Naushad’s recording room. After Andaz, Shamshad sang for the heroine in Babul and Deedar and Lata for the supporting actress. Can we say Lata’s stature was diminished in those films.

84 AK October 6, 2016 at 1:25 pm

Hans,
You have compensated for your delay by raising a number of thought-provoking points.

Your first point is that my bias has led to Lata Mangeshkar being overblown at the cost of some other singers, particularly Suraiya. Last year the complaint was that Geeta Roy(Dutt) was underrepresented. It is self-evident that we all have our biases, which leads to errors of inclusion and exclusion (undeserving inclusion/deserving excluded). There are scientific techniques to mitigate the errors of bias. There is a basic statistical principle that the average of a number of independent variables leads to narrowing down of divergence. Without getting into the mathematics and jargon of the ‘square-root law’, it has wide application in real life, such as diversified portfolio of stocks to temper wild fluctuations, or an Index of small basket of stocks, say SENSEX, mirroring the entire market having thousands of stocks. It may sound counter-intuitive to the uninitiated, but the convergence is so fast that models of small samples mirroring the entire population, are very robust. The point I am driving at is that the readers who have posted their comments, can be seen in aggregate reflecting as close to the ideal unbiased reality as possible. You may like to go through the readers’ views and ask yourself if the larger picture changes.

Within the larger picture, it may be instructive to see how an ‘unbiased’ pie chart looks. The readers have freely added songs of all singers which they thought deserved inclusion. Extending the same principle I have stated above, if you add all these songs to my list, my impression is that the larger picture would remain the same, possibly Lata Mangeshkar’s pie may become bigger.

Having said that, you still have the right to hold the opinion that in 1949, Suraiya had more memorable songs than Lata Mangeshkar, or she had more impact than the latter. In music, personal tastes matter a lot. My only small request is that if you could post Suraiya’s 20 songs (as a counterpoise to Lata Mangeshkar’s 20 songs in this post), it would be very useful for the readers.

‘Ayega aanewala’: On this song, I am seen on SoY as being miserly. What I have stated is a very truncated and moderated summary of what has been said about this song by people who are very knowledgeable. Whether this was a catalyst to singers getting credited in credit-titles can be definitively established only by the insiders present at the time, most of whom are no more. Therefore, we depend upon what is available in common writings. I do remember Barsaat carried singes’ names. I am travelling where the Internet is very patchy. But you may like to check up in the YT.

This brings me to the last point of precedence. HFGK has gone by certification, which seems to be more scientific, as it is a part of the official documentation. It can be validly argued that the release date is a true reflection of reality. But we have to follow a system, and I don’t think there is an absolute right or wrong answer in this. The HFGK compiler must have also felt that the certification was the most practical, and possibly the only feasible way to do the compilation, given our state of archiving. Between Mahal and Barsaat, my impression is that Barsaat was released later, subject to confirmation.

However, the issue here is precedence of songs, which has another additional dynamic. Traditionally, song recordings and release have been decoupled from the film’s release. There is also a wide variation in how much in advance a filmmaker chooses to release the film’s music. One would really need to do a very deep research to establish which song came first, but that is not worthwhile because we are more concerned with the bigger picture.

85 Arunkumar Deshmukh October 6, 2016 at 5:37 pm

AK ji,

Release dates…

Barsat-10-3-1950 in Imperial Theatre, Bombay

Mahal- 13-10-1950 in Roxy Theatre, Bombay.

-AD

86 SSW October 6, 2016 at 5:37 pm

I couldn’t really care about who sang more memorable songs in a particular year but I was under the impression that the release date of a film had little to do with the songs in it. It was common practice to release the recorded versions of the songs on 78 rpm perhaps even six months before a film was released. So the vinyl release of “aayega aanewala” and the playing of the song on the radio would have happened before the film was released.
I agree with AK on a song not being the just the singer’s. Credit should go firstly to the MDs and musicians and then to the lyricist. I’m not knocking the lyricist here but nobody would listen to a recitation of “Awara hoon” or “Barsaat mein”. Sahir was an exception as were some others.
By the way the trend of the performer being the most heralded in an album is present in the West too. Everybody knows of Michael Jackson’s Thriller but few people know who wrote the songs or created the music for that album.

87 AK October 6, 2016 at 5:50 pm

Arunji,
Thanks for the information. I wonder why Mahal is listed in 1949. Was it in the cans for so long?

88 Gaddeswarup October 6, 2016 at 7:05 pm

I have been waiting for comment 87. And the winner is AKJi.

89 mumbaikar8 October 6, 2016 at 8:32 pm

SSW,
Nobody would listen to the recitation of Awar hoon and Barsaat mein hum se mile tum sajan but could it be simplicity of the lyrics that made it popular with the common man? It was the genius of Shailender to keep it so simple. Not all lyricists were up to that mark agreed but along with Sahir there are quite a few.
Music can please your ears but lyrics touch the core of your heart and soul.
Feel the magic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5a0hB0bbHU

You need a Gulzar to make an item song memorable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLJCtZK0x5M

90 Giri October 6, 2016 at 9:17 pm

I agree with SSW @86. I grew up in the interior of Tamil Nadu and did not understand much of Hindi,leave alone Urdu. But what caught our attention was the tune and the orchestration. (Many tunes were copied,including the orchestration, in Tamil films and were liked by the public ) Most of the time I did not even know the singer’s name. Only later,after learning the language, I began to understand and appreciate the beauty of the lyrics.
AK,
Comparing Lata and Suraiya, I think, is like comparing apples and oranges. Lata sang for different actors whereas Suraiya sang only for herself. So the number of songs by Suraiya will depend on how many of her films were released during the year.

91 AK October 6, 2016 at 9:17 pm

Gaddeswarupji,
Thanks a lot for your appreciation.

92 SSW October 7, 2016 at 8:06 am

Mumbaikar8 , I disagree completely with your statement “Music can please the ears etc….”.

Listening to this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uav1p7groPk
or this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITAFeuzaIQ4

is no less than listening to this being recited or read..

http://homepages.wmich.edu/~cooneys/poems/auden.stop.html

93 Shalan Lal October 7, 2016 at 4:43 pm

Hans @ 83 & AK @ 84
Granted that the dates of the releases of the films Mahal and Barasaat were different than 1949 and the songs of both the films were on the records and sold ahead of the films launches at the various film Theatres.
So we have to accept that the films were about to to be launched in the 1949. But delayed. They could be delayed for the Theatres to be free.

As the Indian films were not seriously taken as a part of the social history of the country and there were no definite records we must not do too much hair-splitting and head scratching and bleed ourselves over the storm in the cuppa tea. We should take our interest in a sportman’s spirit.

The curiosity of the singer of Barasaat was very true as it was discussed heatedly by my uncles who believed that the singer was a new Punjabi Hindi voice. But later on when it was known that the voice of Lata Mangeshkar a Maratha girl everybody was completely bowled and fell on the floor and rose up with total disbelief. They argued that the pronunciation of the Hindi words by Lata was perfect and for a long time they believed that Lata was from North and not from the Maharashtra. Perhaps the clue was that she was born in Indore central Indian city very much Hindi speaking province and her father had command on Urdu and Hindi languages as he performed his plays into those languages.
AK mentioned that she is mentioned in the Titles rolling of the Barasaat I watched the beginning of the film on YOUTUBE and did not find her name there. I think she started getting the credit from 1953 onwards. But Mr Deshmukh may know correct film which got her mentioned first time.
My second point is that Barsaat songs became dazzlingly popular for one long year and more as the film ran 75 weeks at the Liberty Theatre near where we had our home.
I had opportunity to know Suraiya for two decades and I loved her songs those from Anmol Ghadi onwards. She too had a very huge fans followed her or waited outside her house to have her “Darshan”. One of her relatives fromtime to time took “Baraat with a horse hoping to marry her. But she did not care for it. She was in real love with Dev Anand even in her old age but after her failed marriage attempt with him he never saw her again to start love with her.
However the songs of Lata outshone her songs. In one of her conversation she mentioned that she hated singing and doing hours and hours rehearsals for one song. By the beginning of the fifties she lost interest in the singing and forced herself to sing the songs for the films in which she acted.
Lata was “Tsunami in that period and later on the producers demanded her voice for their money.
Shalan Lal

94 Arunkumar Deshmukh October 7, 2016 at 10:51 pm

As far as Lata’s name in the credit is concerned, here is an excerpt from a book ” The Music Sound” by Nicolae Sfectu…
” In an interview with Nasreen Munni Kabir, Lata told that she demanded her name in film credits. This was first done in film Barsat-1949. Producers and Directors soon found that Lata’s name helped sell films”..

It is true that in the film versions available on You Tube now, Barsat credits do not show her name, but we must realise that these copies of the film are recertified copies of Barsaat in 1975. There is every likelyhood that the original film copy of 1949 did show Lata’s name in the credits of the film.

I also find that the versions of film Awara-51 and Albela-51 film credits do show Lata’s name as a singer, so it is not true that the naming started from 1953 onwards. It had begun in 1949 itself.

-AD

95 Hans October 8, 2016 at 12:53 am

Arunji,
Thanks for the info about the release dates. I would like to know the release dates of the following films of Dilip Kumar, if you can provide.
Anokha Pyar, Andaz, Babul and Arzoo.

Regarding Barsaat, it is not at all likely that the re-certified copies would remove the name of Lata from credits. This is not a logical conclusion. Also, the inclusion of singers’ names had to come sooner or later. This was not done earlier because the actors themselves sang their songs. Awara certainly has singers’ names (not only Lata but others also), but Albela did not have Lata’s or any other singer’s name. I have perused the titles of about 30 films from 1949 and 1950, but there is no film which shows singer’s names. In 1952, Baiju Bawra has singers’ names, but Naushad’s other films Aan and Deewana do not have names. In 1953 I have checked out some films and even Anarkali did not have singers’ names, but Aah has. Even in 1954 famous films like Amar, Nagin and Aar Paar do not have singers’ names. Even Devdas (1955) does not have singers’ names. You see Amar, Nagin, Anarkali and Devdas have a lot of Lata songs and Anarkali and Nagin could be said to have succeeded principally on her songs, but they did not have her or any other singers’ names. All of them could not have conspired to remove her name during re-certification. Or did she stop demanding her name in credits after Barsaat. The fact is that Raj Kapoor was very specific in giving credits to lot of people in the film titles from his first film itself and he perhaps was the first to include the singers’ names also. The others slowly began to do that.

96 Hans October 8, 2016 at 1:46 am

AK,
Thanks for your detailed reply. I admit that everyone has his/her bias or likes or favourites whatever you may like to call it. And I like your frankness in admitting your bias. This and other qualities of yours have kept me glued to this blog. You also admit totally opposite ideas to be published here. My intention in mentioning Shair was to show the discrimination done there and not the bias. In exercises of this type, one has to shed the bias. Regarding the addition of the songs by readers, I agree they mention more songs of Lata, but that is because most of them have orientation of the later era and also because you have a Lata bent of mind. Most of the people want to be nice with the chief blogger. It is only ‘moodhmati insaan’ like Mumbaikar8 and me who pick up regular fights with you. And at certain occasions Shalanji comes up with unorthodox comments.

Though I mentioned Suraiyya only, I have seen that other singers have been ignored also. I will certainly post a list of not only Suraiyya’s songs but also other female singers, which will take time. But, not to seek approval of the fellow readers. My purpose would be to tell them that other singers also knew how to sing. There is also one rider that, as Giri has also said, the playback singer should not be compared to the singing star. The singing star is the prisoner of the story of the film and sings own songs only. I would give here the example of Badi Behan, since Suraiyya was playing the housemaid of the house whereas her lover was her supposed boss, she conveyed her feelings of love in ‘wo paas rahen ya door rahen’ in a very conservative manner in solitude and all other songs are sad songs because of her situation. But, her sister Geeta Bali who was independent sang ‘chale jana nahin’ which went to Lata, because Suraiyya would not sing others’ songs. Suppose she was given a role in Barsaat, she would have played either Nimmi’s or Nargis’s character and she would have got the songs of one of them, but even then she would not have got ‘hawa men udta jaye’. The era of 1949 was an era when tragic stories and melancholic characters were very common. Therefore, Suraiyya being in lead roles got plenty of sad songs. So I would request all to judge the singer on the basis of whether she has sung the song in the spirit in which it was required to be sung in the film.

Regarding Barsaat and Mahal, much of the confusion has been cleared by Arunji. SSW has said that 78 rpm records were issued even 6 months before the film. I would say that it was not true in old days but in recent times it has become a trend. But, in cases of such delayed releases, it might have been true even in respect of these two films. But, the corresponding record numbers would clear that also. Barsaat’s record numbers as per HFGK are 35911-35915, while Mahal’s records were released in 3 instalments. Aayega aanewala and Rajkumari’s ‘ghabrake’ and ‘ek teer chala’ were released first as record numbers 36030 and 36031, Lata’s ‘mushkil hai bahut mushkil’ and the duet ‘ye raat phir na aayegi were released in record no. 36104. And finally the remaining two songs were released in record no. 36370. So it is clear that even the songs of Barsaat were released earlier than Mahal. Actually, the records as also the gramophone in that era were very costly and they could be reached by only a few elite people. The real impact of the songs was felt when the film was released. And particularly ‘aayega aanewala’ is a song for the scene, which was also picturised bautifully. So it is pretty clear that ‘aayega aanewala’ could not have impacted the inclusion of singers’ names in Barsaat. Some of details I have given in my reply to Arunji.

97 Hans October 8, 2016 at 1:49 am

Shalanji,
There is no hair-splitting, head scratching or bleeding. This is only an effort to elicit more information and you would agree that it has served the purpose.

98 SSW October 8, 2016 at 5:19 am

I am pretty sure that records were released well before the films were even in “yore” as AK would like to put it. While the average person may not have been able to afford them they were played on the radio by AIR and then later by Radio Ceylon (when that old curmudgeon decided to ban film music from AIR) and that is where most people heard those songs. “Mera salaam leja” was on the Binaca Geet Mala charts almost a year before Uran Khatola was released.

99 AK October 8, 2016 at 9:11 am

Hans,
Only one point, unless you said it in a lighter vein. “…and also because you have a Lata bent of mind. Most of the people want to be nice with the chief blogger” – you are not being fair to them. Yes, they are nice to me, but let us not suggest that their opinions are not honest.

100 Hans October 8, 2016 at 9:18 am

Comment 98
About ‘mera salam leja’ there is a story that its tune was smuggled to Husnlal Bhagatram who were giving music to Shama Parwana by some musician from Naushad team. Naushad normally took a lot of time for his music and this being his own production he was taking extra precautions. When he came to know about the fact that HB had composed ‘shame bahar aayi’ based on his tune, he got the song hurriedly recorded and broadcast. The record numbers tell all the story. The hurried recording left some defects and a fresh record was issued later to correct it. This was an exception and not a rule.

Regarding the broadcast of songs on AIR and Radio Ceylon and banning of film music, the comment creates a confusion because no dates are being given. We are talking about 1949. There is no proof or mention anywhere (Arunji can clarify if and when AIR started broadcasting film songs) about when this started. As per info available in public domain, the Hindi service of Radio Ceylon was launched in early 50s. Even if this is true, then radio sets were even harder to get than gramophones and common people, who made all the din, had no access to them. Owning of radio sets upto about the mid 60s was a luxury.

About recordings, there is a contrary example given in HKGK. The note under the 1948 film mentions that some songs which were sung by Meena Kapoor for the film, were got recorded in Lata’s voice because Meena Kapoor fell ill. If the records had been issued prior to the film, then there was no chance of them to be given to Meena Kapoor for the film. The practice in the early era of playback singing that I understand from various sources was to first record them for the film and then the same day record them for the recording company, to keep them as near as possible to the well rehearsed song recorded for the film. Later this was changed when records started to be issued prior to the film. I dont know when the system changed but in 1949 – as per the testimony of Anokha Pyar – the old system was followed. I agree that there may be exceptions and may be Mahal was one of them, but as I have shown the records of Barsaat were issued earlier than Mahal, and all of them were issued in one go.

Arunji had earlier mentioned that there were a number of films for which no records were issued and there were others for which records were issued after a long delay.

101 Arunkumar Deshmukh October 8, 2016 at 1:38 pm

Hans ji and others at SOY,

About the myth of banning film songs on A.I.R., I am putting my views and some auhentic information on ” Open House “, because I believe this info has nothing to do directly about this post and the discussion thereof.
I would request everyone to read my comments to know the reality about this myth of ban on film songs on A.I.R.

-AD

102 Shalan Lal October 8, 2016 at 2:52 pm

Arun Kumar Deshmukh @ 94

With due regards and respect to Lata M and her interview with N M Kabir I am doubtful about Lata M’s insistance or demand that her name should have been in the credits roll.

Lata was not in the position to ask for such a thing. She was not in a commanding position. That came after she became popular after the film Barasaat. She was lucky that she got so many songs in Barsaat and it is my theory that happened becasue RK did not have enough funds to pay for other singers. And anyway playback singers were not famous or MD’s necessity. They could call any one they wanted. Just look at the situation of the MDs and the singers in the forties from Khajanchi 1941 to Khel in 1950

In Aap Ki Sevamein” there was another singer called Mohan Tara. Her voice was as weet as Lata’s was. But she did not get RK singings for his film. RK saw Lata available after Andaz recording and casually asked her to sing for his film Otherwise Mohan Tara would have been in Lata’s place would RK have chanced to see her.

All those stories of Ghulam H telling Mukharji are just made up legends.

Shalan Lal

Shalan Lal

103 Shalan Lal October 8, 2016 at 2:58 pm

About Records publishing before the films being launched it was true that the records were launched because playing gramophone records came first before the talkies started using songs. C.Rmacahndra’s Shahnai, Kihidki and Albela records came well before the films were launched . Previously I had mentioned that the distributors had to wait for the Theatres being free.

Shalan

104 Shalan Lal October 8, 2016 at 3:09 pm

Hans 97

I am glad that there is no blood letting.

About your previous comment that Samshaad came in 1946 is need some correction. Though she was not in Bombay she started making gramophone recrding well back in thirties when she was about fourteen in Lahore and also at the same time came on AIR Lahor branch.
She became hugely famous for singing in Khajanchi 1941. When Ghulam Haider came to Pune in 1942 he attended a singings comptition of the Khajanchi song sung by Samshaad . The comptition was won by one thin girl about 12 years old called Lata Mangeshkar. Ghulam H awarded her ruppees hundred as that was the winning prize.

Shalan Lal

105 SSW October 8, 2016 at 5:06 pm

With reference to comment 100. From reading that it seems that anybody could willy nilly release records before the film was released, if we have to look at Mahal, Barsaat, Uran Khatola as examples. I do find it hard to believe that Naushad recorded the song hurriedly for release by HMV. The song was probably recorded earlier and released before the film was , because of or not because of the tale of the tune being stolen.

On the idea that a radio set was harder to get than a gramophone I have some doubt. From an engineering angle a gramophone is costlier to manufacture than a radio and people need not personally possess radios to listen to songs. All it needs is one shop or hotel to have a radio and there are thousands of busy people willing to support walls or sit on benches to listen to songs. I was a very young when TV came to Bombay in 1972 or 1973 and I remember dozens of people crammed into a single room in a flat to watch programmes.

Ms.Lal also seems to thinks that the records were issued prior to the films release so there may be some justification in my statement. On the issue of Mr.Keskar I shall head over to the Open House to read what Mr.Deshmukh has put up.

106 mumbaikar8 October 8, 2016 at 9:27 pm

SSW @ 92
I was not talking about Classical music. Maestros like Ravi Shankar Bismillah Khan Zakir Hussain (to name a few) do not need any lyrics.
My emphasis was for film songs, this topic is repeated for so many times now its got boring, besides that, it is difficult for me to put my thoughts to words. I am dyslexic.
Let us leave it by agreeing to disagree.

107 mumbaikar8 October 8, 2016 at 9:50 pm

Shalan Lal @ 66
I like the chhed chaad.
I do not listen to the music when I am doing my chores that time I listen to political debates so there is not scope of messing my work.
Whilst walking I leave some room ( earplugs loose enough) for listening to the chirping of music and the passerby cyclists but when I am driving my music keeps me away from committing cardinal sin of profiling the drivers around.

108 SSW October 8, 2016 at 9:55 pm

Mumbaikar8 I still disagree even with regard to popular music. A tune is not ear candy, there is a construction to it that is apparent unconsciously to the human ear and consciously to those who are either trained to understand it or strive to do so.
Lyrics are not poetry and depend on sonic cues and poetry depends on cadence and rhythm to convey its meaning. If you have cherished pre-conceived notions then any topic will become boring. My original statement was not that music was better than poetry, but that people would rather listen to a tune than buy and read a poem or a poetry book.

109 mumbaikar8 October 8, 2016 at 10:34 pm

Shalan @ 93
You said “Perhaps the clue was that she was born in Indore central Indian city very much Hindi speaking province and her father had command on Urdu and Hindi languages as he performed his plays into those languages.”
Lata has repeatedly spoken that she was hurt when Dilip Kumar remarked (she was introduced as a Maharashtrian singer by Anil Biswas) Maharashtrian singers have flavor of dal bhaat in their singing.
She took it as a challenge and got training in Urdu from an Urdu teacher. It was not only her singing talent that made her what she is.
It requires much more and she has all of it.

110 mumbaikar8 October 9, 2016 at 3:15 am

Hans, @ 96
You are right when you say that it is you and me who pickup fights regularly.
I agree with you that most of the people want to be nice to AK but there are few of them, Shalan Lal, mentioned by you, Venkataramanji Ravindra Kelkar, at times they do discuss AK’s biases.
The difference between them and us is they do not pick up fight, they say it in a more subtle way and we are blunt.
AK, @99
I am sure Hans is not suggesting that their opinions are not honest.
They are truly honest in their opinions, but they do not discuss things that they do not agree or have contrary views.

111 AK October 9, 2016 at 6:35 am

Mumbaikar8,
Let us not psychoanalyse third persons. If one has to, one should discuss one’s own idiosyncrasies. What is important is that Hans has very fairly acknowledged that I don’t mind blunt difference of views.

112 mumbaikar8 October 9, 2016 at 3:45 pm

AK,
I am sorry that was not third person psychoanalyses. I agreed to what Hans had said despite of you putting a big question mark (@99) to his remark . My response was in defense of that agreement.
I have never said that you mind blunt views. Yes I do not find it necessary to repeat again and again that you tolerate blunt views, our presence on your terrain proves that.

113 Shalan Lal October 9, 2016 at 5:54 pm

Hans @ 100

My information about records being pre launched prior to the opening of the Films came from my conversation with C.Ramchandra. He said when some producers like S.Mukhari, Chandulal Shaha did not like his compositions when played on therecords for the restaraunts crowds and seeing how happy they were listening to hsi songs then they would give permission to shoot the song scenes.

In the early forties and pershaps in thirties as well the MDs were in full authority of recording the songs as they are used as records being played to lipsync the acting of the actors while shooting was done. This was not done for those actors who could easily sing.

Secondly there is some shooting scenes in the film “Aadmi” of Prabahat and that also will give an idea how the songs were prerecorded.

Reader Mr SSW brought the issue of the gramophones being expenmsive and not accessible to the common people. However most the Tea Houses and Restaurants had gramohones and records playing all through the day to attract customers.

The above information is based on a lecture I went to hear given by the Principal of Sophia College in Bombay about thirty years back. He was talking in Hindi. He mentioned that when he was young schoolgoing lad he and his friends went to a Reastaurant called “Jikriya” in Sholapur and listned to the records for hours being played. he wrote a book about it.

Besides many cities and towns had gardens which had a bandstands. During the evening when the English band was not plyed the gramophone records were played for an hour or so before the sunset.

Bombay’s Worali Seaface had Band stand and it was used for both purpoeses.

Balaraj Sahani the actor published in Hind “Meri Filmi Atmkahani”. In it he wrote his expereince as playing Hindi Films songs from London for the soldiers of the Brtish Indian Army during the war time.

AIR probably started after the BBC Radio to give news, information and entertian people from India with Radio stations in many big cities famous among them Bombay, Calcutta , Madras, Delhi, Lucknow, and Lahore. Before the talkies started thre was a craze among the artists to call themselves as Artists of the AIR. AIR also played Hindi and regional languages songs and occasinally small skits.

The singer Shamshad Begum started her career on Lahore Radio in early thirties. Many of her songs she sang were composed by Ghulam Haider.

Shalan Lal

114 Shalan Lal October 9, 2016 at 6:19 pm

Mumbaikar8 @93 and your other recent comments.

I am glad you are using your personal listening divices very carefully.
I share your feeling about Dyslexic as I too suffer from the same.

About your comment “Lata ” learning Urdu from a Urdu teacher and she being a Disciple of Ustad Bhediwale-

I think this happend later when she started earning good money. Her being on the poverty line is very famous. She had a patronage of the actor director Vinayak who gave her and her family leftover food and clothes to wear from his constume department which were used and torn.

“Barasaat! became magical want and this poor little Cinderella became a rich princess probabaly like the Queen Elizabeth the First, who did not find right man to marry in the empire of Bollywood.

Shalan Lal

115 SSW October 9, 2016 at 7:09 pm

Ms.Lal, just a correction, I did not say the gramophones and radios were expensive and inaccessible. That was Hans’s point of view . I just pointed out that listening to songs on the radio were accessible to common people even in those days .

116 Arunkumar Deshmukh October 10, 2016 at 11:11 am

Hans ji,
Your comment No. 95

Here are the release dates as you wanted…

Anokha Pyar 03-06-1949 Super Talkies, Bombay

Andaz 21-03-1949 Liberty

Babul 12-10-1950 Lamington

Arzoo 20-01-1950 Excelsior

-AD

117 Shalan Lal October 10, 2016 at 9:59 am

SSW @ 115

I expess my apology for making a mistake of understanding of your remrk.

Thanks for the correction

Shalan Lal

118 mumbaikar8 October 10, 2016 at 12:27 pm

Shalan Lal @114
Thanks for empathizing. Your knowledge and the your skillful writings show that you have managed you handicap very well. For me reading and writing is still an uphill task.
About the timeline of Lata learning Urdu, I cannot contest with your knowledge.
I put two and two together, as Lata had so many songs in Andaz, her being introduced to Dilip Kumar post 1949 seems less logical.

119 Ashok Kumar Tyagi October 11, 2016 at 3:11 pm

AK ji
Some views above, particularly by SSW and Mumbaikar8, discuss whether lyricist should get more weightage for popularity/quality of a song or the MD or the singers?

In my humble view, the weightage varies from song to song. If we study the three songs from film Anpadh-1962 listed below, Raja Mehndi Ali, Madan Mohan and Lata are likely to get almost equal credit:

a) Jiya le gaya ji mera sanwariya
b) Hai isi main pyar ji aabroo
c) Aap ji nazaro me samjha

Now, study the Lata Mangeshkar song from film Manmauji :-
Main to tum sang nain Mila ke
haar gayi sajna a aa haar gayi sajna.

In this song Madan Mohan will get more credit than Rajendra Krishan or Lata because in the Mukhda the lyricist has left the second line unbalanced as regards the meter – at ‘haar gayi sajna’. Madan has balanced it by lengthening sajan in the first place and then repeating the whole phrase. Similar trick has been used in the antaras. Moreover the tune and orchestration are superb. Hence more credit to MM.
In the song ‘Kar chale hum fida jan-o-tan sathiyon’ – Haqeeqat, more credit will go to Kaifi Azmi for brilliant lyrics.
Thanks

120 Hans October 11, 2016 at 8:14 pm

AK,
My comment did not at all suggest that the others were posting dishonest comments. There are several reasons for common people to become friendly to people who have some power. We like to be nice to our teachers, bus or train conductors, teachers of our wards and so on and so forth. These are very few examples. By this constant practice this becomes a habit with us. But, there are exceptions and that is why I called Mumbaikar8 and me ‘moodhmati insans’.

Just an example in lighter vein. Thousands and thousands of people saw apples or other fruits falling from a tree, but only Newton thought over it and created a new theory. That does not mean that all except Newton were fools.

121 Hans October 11, 2016 at 8:16 pm

Arunji,
Thanks for the information, which is very useful to me and may be to all others.

122 Hans October 11, 2016 at 8:21 pm

Mumbaikar8,
Thanks for the support and understanding my viewpoint. And also for not getting angry with me for clubbing you in ‘moodhmati insan’ group without permission.

123 Hans October 11, 2016 at 8:34 pm

Shalanji,
In the case of Shamshad, I was talking only about her singing for Naushad, which started in 1946. Otherwise I know she started singing in Hindi films in 1941. I am one of her big fans, so I know these basic things.

Regarding the release of records, my initial response was to come out against credit being given to Lata for everything and in that context, I mentioned Mahal and Barsaat recordings and where I have been vindicated. This was taken in different context by SSW. I dont care whether records were released earlier or later. I was just mentioning what I have read that earlier it was a practice to record songs simultaneously for the film and the record company. In some cases the films were released late due to some snags, but in most cases it was the opposite.

Regarding CR’s claims you mention, I dont believe such things. CR’s music and character I like very much, but he was a big boaster. After recording so many songs with Lata, he called her only a tape-recorder.

124 mumbaikar8 October 11, 2016 at 10:49 pm

Ashok Kumar Tyagi.
I agree the weightage does vary from song to song it depends upon the lyricists.
But I do not agree with the example of Haqeeqat song. Kar chale hum fida I believe Kaifi Azmi, MM and Rafi all of them are brilliant.
Perhaps SSW can explain the brilliance of MM’s music and Rafi’s singing.
Haqeeqat has another song of same quality.
Mai ye sochkar uske dar se uthatha

125 mumbaikar8 October 11, 2016 at 10:54 pm

Hans,
I have the habit of calling spade a spade how can I get angry when on the receiving end?

126 AK October 12, 2016 at 12:38 am

Tyagiji,
Brilliant observation on Main to tum sang nain mila ke. MM has covered the gap beautifully. In several songs such shortcomings in lyrics are jarring. This mostly happens in long vowel being prnounced as short.

I agree with the examples of lyrics you have given. My point was, and still is, that in film songs, out of four markers – singer, music director, film and lyricist – we find it most difficult to remember the name of the lyricist. I may correctly identify hundreds of songs, but I cannot identify Shailendra or Hasrat Jaipuri. I do not know if there is any theory for that.

127 SSW October 12, 2016 at 2:24 am

I was a bit curious about the practice of releasing records and films at different times and I came across this bit from the book “Bollywood Sounds: The Cosmopolitan mediations of Hindi film song” by Jayson Beaster-Jones published in 2011. The practice started apparently after playback singing became more acceptable. The paragraph from the book goes thus
“Indeed, the HMV music company came to rely on the relatively low-risk distribution of prerecorded film songs as a cash cow. This practice of composing recorded songs for picturization meant that songs were also available to be broadcast on radio and released on records weeks before the film release, which meant that HMV could also mobilize the promotional forces of film to sell the music. By the 1940s , film songs were commonly released in advance in order to promote their films, which increased the stranglehold of the film industry over the music industry.”

Now this book also states that the second batch of released records of the film Mahal had Lata’s name as the singer of “Aayega aanewala” and it states that the records of Barsaat were released later and those record jackets featured the names of the singers.

So faced as we are with the record number of a song from Barsaat being lower than the record number of a song from Mahal (I am talking about a single 78 rpm record that had a playing time of approximately 4 minutes on each side) what did the record number really indicate? Could it be a pointer to the date of recording , the date of issue or the date of production?

128 Shalan Lal October 12, 2016 at 9:37 am

Mubaikar8 @ 125
“To call a spade a spade”
I think it is very dangersous to use the phrase when one is in America as it has a very different meaning. Following is the excraction from an American dictionary of the usages of the English language:
“In the late 1920s during the Harlem Renaissance, “spade” began to evolve into code for a black person, according to Patricia T. O’Connor and Stewart Kellerman’s book Origins of the Specious: Myths and Misconceptions of the English Language.
The Oxford English Dictionary says the first appearance of the word spade as a reference to blackness was in Claude McKay’s 1928 novel Home to Harlem, which was notable for its depictions of street life in Harlem in the 1920s. ”

Further more if you want to use the phrase in its older meaning her is a quatation from – Oscar Wild
Oscar Wilde uses the phrase in his novel The Picture of Dorian Gray (1890), when the character Lord Henry Wotton remarks: “It is a sad truth, but we have lost the faculty of giving lovely names to things. The man who could call a spade a spade should be compelled to use one (spade). It is the only thing he is fit for.”

Take this as another “Chhed Chhed”

Shalan La

129 AK October 12, 2016 at 2:01 pm

SSW, Hans, Arunji,
Here is an interesting bit of observation I came across in an article titled “The Rotating Disc” (p. 46) by Dr Suresh Chandvankar in the 2003 Annual Issue of the journal of the Society of Indian Record Collectors:

“Later on in 1949, she (Lata Mangeshkar) insisted that her name be printed on the record label of the famous song ‘Aayega aanewala’ from the film ‘Mahal’. So one can come across two different versions of 78 rpm record of this song – one in which credit is given to ‘Lata Mangeshkar’ and the other in which the name ‘Kamini’ – (the character in the film ‘Mahal’) – is printed on the record label.”

The above observation is a small part of the comprehensive survey of the history of gramophone records in India. A fascinating article. Dr Suresh Chandvankar is a well known name in the field of historiography of records. He is the founder in collaboration with Michael Kinnear of SIRC. Their writings are generally based on primary sources. It throws good light on what we have been discussing about ‘Ayega anewala’, the year of the record’s release and its role in crediting playback singers.

The old volumes of SIRC journal are available in downloadable PDF form at

http://www.dsal.uchicago.edu

130 Arunkumar Deshmukh October 13, 2016 at 3:50 pm

AK ji,

The correct name is Dr. SURESH CHANDVANKAR.

-AD

131 AK October 13, 2016 at 6:35 pm

Arunji,
Thanks for the corrcetion. For ten years I have been ‘reading’ his name wrongly.

132 mumbaikar8 October 13, 2016 at 6:46 pm

Shana Lal @128
A brown is talking to or about a brown, it is not as offensive as you are suggesting. If you wish to debate more we can do itin our personal emails.
About Lord Henry Wotton’s remarks, it fits me quite well, as you are aware of my skill with pen.I am happy to be fit for spade and get some gardening done as long as weather permits, and during winter time shovel snow.
In your chhed chad mode you have moved away from Lata’s Urdu diction to spade.

133 Hans October 13, 2016 at 8:18 pm

AK,
It must be remembered that issuing of the records was like publishing books. When the first edition of the books was sold out, there came the second and then the third. Similarly records were also reissued when the earlier lot was sold out. When the fashion of giving singers name became routine, after that all the records that were re-issued showed the names of singers, whether it was Lata or anybody else.

The greatest of experts or original researchers make mistakes and here DR. Chandvankar has made a mistake.

134 Shalan Lal October 14, 2016 at 10:40 am

Mumbaikar8 @ 132

Thanks for your invitation for a debate. If I do that you will call me a wrangler (in America “a wrangler” is a cowboy or farmhand” In Oxford a wrangler is one who wins the debate in sciences and mathematics subject.
But that was “Chhed Chhad” as you like it. And the Chhed Chhad is pleasing when it is brief and not turned into a debate.

Shalan Lal

P.S. But my suggestion is that you do not go on using the “Spade” phrase in the public. Here in England it is a politically incorrect idiom.

135 mumbaikar8 October 14, 2016 at 12:30 pm

Shalan Lal
I did not want to turn chhed chhad into debate that’s why I invited you to personal emails.
I wonder how you can come to the conclusion of what I would say.
Thanks for the suggestion.
If political correctness is “learning about others and respecting the differences that make each of us unique” I am all for it but I do not believe in political correctness that is impinging on free speech.
P.S “President Obama has said that he doesn’t agree with colleges avoiding potentially offensive material because he feels students shouldn’t be sheltered from different points of view.”

Today’s students tomorrow’s nation builders.

136 Shalan Lal October 15, 2016 at 9:07 am

Mubaikar8 @ 135

Your message is taken.

Shalan Lal

137 Shalan Lal October 15, 2016 at 9:33 am

AK @ 131 and Arun K Deshmukh @ 130

Names could be confusing!

My living in Bombay now Mumbai tells me that there are a few names similar to the name Chandavarkar among the Marathi community. We had one neighbour called Dr Prabhakar Chandorkar. Then there is Chanadratray and also Chandkar. If somebody dug out the old census records published by the various cities in Maharashtra we might find many names beginning with Chand, Chandra, Chandaa and other variations. Any name that has a suffix “kar” looks like a Maharashtrian person except “Mumbaikar”8.

The name “Chandavankar” is little strange. I wonder is there a place called “Chandavan” that rhymes with “Vrindavan”?

In Sanskrit “Kar” means hand or arm. There is another word in Sanskrit for hand or arm and that is “Paani” as the word Paani for water.
Many people are intrigued about the name of the singer “Binapaani Mukherjee. Actually itt means goddess Saraswati who holds Veena in her hands or arms and not meaning Bina (without) Paani (water) making Mukharjee meaning of her name could be as Thirsty Mukhaerjee” (This should be taken as “ChhedChhad”)

In Marathi “kar” means do or in in Hindi “karo”. But as the suffix it seems to be the person related to the main word and all main words seemed to be not necessarily names of the places.

Names intrigue me!

In the Uk and America and Europe the names of the people come straight from the name of the places without any change in main words as “Buckingham, (Charles) Laughton, and so on.

The word “kar” in Indian language menas Tax as in “Aaykar”

Your mistake probably was due to the name of the actress “Leena Chandvarkar” the wife of late Kishore Kumar and from a very rich household from Goa.

Shalan Lal

138 Arunkumar Deshmukh October 15, 2016 at 3:56 pm

There is one more meaning of ‘ Kar ‘ in Marathi and that is ‘ a resident of ‘.
All names ending with kar necessarily precede the name of the town , village or a city.
-AD

139 Shalan Lal October 18, 2016 at 10:24 am

Arunkumar Dehsmukh @ 138

Thanks for your clarification of the “Kar” suffix in the names as the person who is the resident of the place.

But I think I touched it in my comment number 137 and asked the rhetorical question “The name “Chandavankar” is little strange. I wonder is there a place called “Chandavan” that rhymes with “Vrindavan”?

वडेकर, पं. के. डी. जावकर, सावरकर, मामा वरेरकर, महादेव जानकर, Eknaath Solkar, प्रियकर, Kamalakar, Kanekar, श्री. अन्वीकर, नार्वेकर (This person is the author of some books on Indian films especially Marathi films. But does the name come from Norway?)

All the above names that have “Kar” at the end seemd to have no place reference but the main words like “वडे, जाव, सावर, वरेर, जान, “Sol” (probably from the fruit from which the famous Konki soup is made), प्रिय, Kane, अन्वी etc. may have different origins. It could be easy to find how the most famous Indian name i.e.” सावरकर” during the Independence movement is originated. I do not think it came from the place name.

Some Marathi expert anthropologist who studied the Marathi names and and surnames could tell more about the formation of Marathi names. My undestanding is that the surnames system came into practice during the Britishraj and the system differs from provinces to provinces and communities to communities.

As it was said in the play Pygmaliyan/My Fair Lady (Film) that the British wanted to pinpoint from where the names/persons come from.

In some South Indian names like M.S. Subbalxmi the the initial letters M.S. stand for the name of the city and mother of the artist. M stand for Madurai and S stands for her mother.

Shalan Lal

140 Hans October 28, 2016 at 6:36 pm

This is in continuation of the discussion resting with comment 133 regarding Lata’s ‘aayega aanewala’ being the occasion of starting the practice of writing names of singers on the records or in titles. In that context there was a mention of the research by Dr. Chandvankar. I today came across a song from film Garibi (1949) sung by Rafi with a 78rpm version of it being uploaded. After a shortwhile of the song’s playing comes the image of the original record which contains the name of Mohd. Rafi on the record. So it is clear that singers were credited before ‘aayega aanewala’ or without the insistence by Lata. So it is clear that Dr. Chandvankar had made a mistake.

Here is the link of the song for everyone to see.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3I27mIB84w

141 SSW October 28, 2016 at 11:04 pm

But Hans if you go by that then your assertion that the record number indicates the date of release would be incorrect. On the other hand if your assertion is correct then the record number of Garibi which is 36229 means it was released later than “aayega aanewala” or the Barsaat songs which have numbers 359030 and 35911-15 . Someday I would really like to know what those numbers indicate.

142 Hans November 5, 2016 at 6:02 pm

SSW,
There is no inconsistency in what I say. I did not say that the Garibi record was issued before ‘aayega aanewala’. Since everyone here has stated that the ‘aayega aanewala’ record was issued without Lata’s name on it, so the only likelihood of her name being given on the record was in its second edition. In that case the Gharibi record is the oldest on display on which the singer’s name is written and that is not Lata. It is likely that some day some record older than the Gharibi record may emerge on which singer’s name was written.

If you have a look on my comment at 83 when I entered the discussion, I had just raised an objection to Lata being given credit for everything. All these authors the books of whom were mentioned in the comments have only acted as Lata apologists. My contention is only that the naming of singers in film credits or the writing of their names on records came only as a matter of course due to changing times. I mentioned the record numbers after you said that records were issued well in advance of the films. I mentioned the numbers to show that Barsaat’s records were issued prior to Mahal. In fact, till about 2 years ago, I never cared for the record numbers. It was only when discussing who was the first female composer, I posed a query how could we decide if two composers composed for a film in the same year and Arunji answered that we can have a look at record numbers. Even then I had raised a doubt that for some films records were issued promptly but in some cases they were issued very late to which Arunji had also agreed.

Otherwise also there was no consistency in issuing of records. I had mentioned the case of Anokha Pyar which neither you nor AK seem to have considered. This film was censored in 1948 but released even after Andaz which was censored in 1949. If there was so much inconsistency in the films of so important actors, what can one say with surety about minor films. It appears that records of Gharibi were issued very late. In start of the last para of my comment 96, I had mentioned about there being no set rule in releasing music and I had admitted that in delayed releases like Barsaat and Mahal, a big gap in the release of music and film could have happened.

143 SSW November 6, 2016 at 11:33 am

Hans , what I am trying to say is that I have not seen anybody offering any proof that a record labeled with a lower number was released for public consumption before one with a higher number. This is a question I have asked before. Does the number co-relate to the date of recording, the date of production of the intial record , or the date of release?
You also mentioned fallacies that people had to see movies to listen to songs as radios and record players were not easily available. That I am afraid is inconsistent with street knowledge and the memories of many people who were young then. Neither is your assertion that film songs could not have been played on the radio before the film was released, when it is clear that it was used by production houses as easy advertising as I’ve quoted from the Beaster-Jones book.

I am not sure why according credit to Lata is such an issue. It could very well have happened that record companies may have agreed later to adding singers names, maybe they just agreed to her request first. It isn’t such an earth shaking event.

144 AK November 6, 2016 at 5:32 pm

Hans, SSW
I would limit myself to radio and film songs. And I am talking from personal experience which was representative of my generation. Our main source of film songs was radio, and not films. Even before the internet era, 90% songs I was aware of was through the radio. Radio or transistor was a ubiquitous possession of an average household. That was our source of infotainment.

145 Shalan Lal November 7, 2016 at 10:21 am

AK,Hans, SSW and others

It seems that we are in the abyss that is a deep, immeasurable space, gulf, or cavity; vast chasm about when the names of the ghost singers started appearing on the records and also on the roll of the credit.

Many later films or the re-issuing of the old films have doctored their credit rolls in late forties and early fifties.

I think we had a jolly good liberal discussion on the matter and we have not arrived at a firm understanding about this particular point. One who is needed to go to film archives and look at the available resources on this issue. The sources could be old records, old magazines, news papers etc.

Bombay Talkies used to issue a booklet on their films with all the dialogues and songs names of the stars etc. But they did not mention the ghost singers.

It was because the domination of the singing stars and at that time there was a primary need for the actors to be able to sing in the films. This need then towards the end of forites was slowly disappeared. In “Baiju Bawara” the singings actor Surendra took singing voice from another actor.

Suraiya told me that she was ready to take the voice of another singer but then it was too late for her.

I think as the song says from the film “Gumrah” :
तार्रुफ़ रोग हो जाये तो उसको भूलना बेहतर
ताल्लुक बोझ बन जाये तो उसको तोड़ना अच्छा
वो अफ़साना जिसे अंजाम तक लाना ना हो मुमकिन – २
उसे एक खूबसूरत मोड़ देकर छोड़ना अच्छा
चलो इक बार फिर से “…

It looks we are all “Gumrah” in the discussion about “Who’s on the record and who’s on the roll of the credits.

Let us say “उसे एक खूबसूरत मोड़ देकर छोड़ना अच्छा!” and give us a break.

Shalan La

146 ksbhatia November 7, 2016 at 7:12 pm

Ms. Shalan Lal , AK ji ,
Myself @38….
If Barsaat had a variety of happy, sad and emotional songs ; so were respectively there in Andaz songs too . Each complementing the demand of the situation and as per the story line . Some time a single song tells all.

Of the sad songs of the movie ,the one…..Tod diya dil mera…I think sums up the story of the outcome of the liberated western life style that were being blindly followed in the british india era by the rich and famous people of that time . In the story Nargis played a modern society girl , little knowing the perils there of , despite warning by his father…. of cons of club life and even telling …..tumahara Dilip se mael jol theek nahin hai…. ultimately landing up into a self entrapped situation .

If one look at the song and hear it a number of times ; one surely will asses it as one based on Pahadi raag and if one links it to the story line , which initiated with the club life , the feeling of the song close down to Waltz beats . If that is so , was it there in Mehboob , Naushad or Majhroo’s mind ?….Lyrics depicting the perils and music depicting club life .

In many of the hindi movies songs of the golden era waltz beats or orchestrisation have been used in many of happy , romantic and sad songs . Shankar jaikishan were the fore front runner in such waltz songs.

Moving my head towards western equivalent now , remembering my fav. Engelbert’s ….The Last Waltz and Blue Spanish Eyes….as also Anthony Hopkins’ …..And the Waltz goes on….played by the famous Andre Reiu orchestra .

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