व्याकरण, उच्चारण और उत्पीड़न

AK ji,
I have simply no words to thank you and appreciate you for this post.
One thing is that I am so happy that correct English is not yet dead in India and two, someone felt it important enough to talk about the right grammar, pronunciation and diction etc.
These days such matters are called ‘ outdated’.
The basic problem is our children are taught wrong English or wrong regional languages. This is a common problem all over India and in all languages. The quality of teachers itself is highly suspect.
With smart phones and social media language is now converted into a coded language.
No wonder this reflected in songs too. Too much importance to Meter and rhyming, grammar and language were freely sacrificed.
A lot can be said. Anyway, as a purist myself, I congratulate you for opening up this issue and made into a post for such songs.
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This is an interesting and important topic. We generally talk of ‘poetic license’ which gives creative artists freedom to deviate from the rules, norms.
But this applies to the great ones, not everyone.
In Tamil we have a saying: the writer spoiled the script, the singer spoiled the song. In the olden days when books were handwritten, scribes made mistakes while copying. But the singers’ case is different. In many cases, their voice culture was so poor that they could not pronounce or split the words to suit the swara, so they kept the swara and did not bother about the words. You can get many examples of this from amongst the Carnatic musicians even today. This is sheer lack of application in most cases.
But one would not expect such a situation in Hindi movie music where the lyrics are often written to suit the tune, or the words are altered. The examples you have given are stunning. Bengalis pronouncing Hindi is understandable , I have noticed slips in Hemant Kumar’s rendering too in a couple of places [ nadi kanare instead of ‘kinare’ in Sawale saloni aayi in Ek Hi Rasta] But Majrooh saab mixing up gender? Queer. But could it be deliberate for some reason?
The observation on ib-ab is interesting. In some songs ‘Ek’ is pronounced ‘Ik’ ( eg ik aaye, ik jaaye musafir in Musafir. ) is this a regional variation or deliberate indulgence?

My, my, my…. how conscious I would always become now onwards about my own pronunciations…….

The post should a mandatory lessons in schools, colleges and even offices…

What any amount of studies of grammar or phonetics may not be able to teach, this post will always resonate in the minds of people who simply go on to wrongly pronounce even simple words.

AKji,
Hats off!
I agree with your views and the readers views. Purity of a language and correct pronunciation are something, that are now a days badly neglected area of conversation. There is always ‘चलता हैं’ attitude.
But for me too, the language that we use daily should be correctly pronounced and correctly written too!
You corrected me that day, with बिजलीयो being the correct thing to write, than बिजलीयों.
My Hindi is not good, when it comes to writing. I find it very difficult indeed. And correct pronunciation is another matter with me.

I would also like to attract your attention to a Hemant Kumar song from Anupama

https://youtu.be/poXBa76JNKk

That goes, या मुझको यभी चुप रेह्यने दो
Sounds so weird.

Another problem about Pawan.
The first song that comes to my mind, is Pawan deewani.
How a pawan, who’s a male by gender can be deewani.
Here’s the link
https://youtu.be/jF217bhzkIw

But we’re so used to it, that when I heard a Bharat vyas song,
Kalpna ke ghan barsate, geet geele Ho Rahe. I felt ‘oh! How can there be झूमता फिरता पवन.

Here’s the link,

https://youtu.be/f-ZXBFoJTH4

I’m still confused, which is correct! My heart says, of course, the one by Bharat vyas is correct!

Anup

And,
I was under impression that, in Delhi people always use the word ‘करा हैं’ instead of ‘किया हैं’
And it’s just a part of the regional difference, thank as n being wrong.

And, I’m going to get all my doubts cleared.
It is many a times said, “aap karo” and I think, “aap kijiye” would be correct.
I used to think, ‘karo’ is used only for tum.

Let me add a few mistakes as well from the songs,
Dheere Dheere Aap Mere Dil Ke Mehman Ho Gaye from baazi
https://youtu.be/z_MxcS9Ags4

The first stanza goes,
Yeh Hai Karam Aap Ka, Tum Ne Mujhe Chun Liya.

Also,
Sajan ji ghar aaye from KKHH.
One of the lines from the stanza by Kavita Krishnamurthy goes,
“Tu Bada Yaad Aayegi”
https://youtu.be/8XtXLVylOoU

Is it wrong or correct?

Will get my other doubts cleared later. Don’t remember more right now.

Anup

Please read as,
‘than being wrong’
The last sentence of first paragraph.

And,
Canasya ji,
you have a point there.

But still, when you are singing a Hindi song as a commercial playback singer, your diction and pronounciation should be as accurate as possible.
But as a old HFM lover, we ignore it because of the glamour attached to the names.
And that’s obvious enough! It’s not to be taken as a mistake.

Anup
🙂

An error in the singer “15. Ho nigaahein mastana by Kishore Kumar and Asha Bhosle from Paying Guest (1957), lyrics Majrooh Sultanpuri, music SD Burman”… is sung by Kishore Kumar and Asha not RAFI

AK,
Wow! Great! Only a language buff like you can pull it out.
I want to make an honest confession I have never got an language right but unlike Venkataramanji that would not stop me from participating in discussions
This is what Majrooh had said for Aar Paar song.
“Guru Dutt did not like the words “mujhko tujhse”. He thought the words were dry and were crushing the tune. So he wanted me to say, “Pyaar humko tumse ho gaya.” (We have fallen in love with you.) He said: “Try this, they’re easygoing notes.” I explained that it was grammatically wrong. If we used the word ‘suno’ in the plural then using ‘hum ko’ would be correct. We were using ‘sun’ in the singular, so it should be ‘mujhko’. Guru Dutt looked at me and said: “Forget it! Who in the audience is bothered about your grammar? Majrooh, the plural sounds better. Keep it.” So that’s the song, and it was a big hit”.
Majrooh took him seriously.
Number of songs by Majrooh in your post confirms that?
Even the song mentioned by Anup Pawan Diwani is written by Majrooh

Baiju Bawra song जमुना की धारा though grammatically correct would look odd for amale. That is the only logic I can think of.

On grammar I need your opinion on these lyrics
यह जी ज़िन्दगी है कोई दास्तान है कब होगा क्या ये खबर कहाँ है
यह जो ज़िन्दगी है कोई रास्तां है कहाँ जाएंगी यह खबर कहाँ है
Should it be ” कहाँ जाएंगी” as it is for ज़िन्दगी or कहाँ जाएगा for रास्तां?

Coming back to तुम्हीं ने दर्द दिया my understanding is she didn’t mispronounce it but misunderstood.
“दर्द की दवा” is common in Hindi but even in English we rarely say pain medication its always pain reliever and दाबना In Bengali और दबाना is a pain reliever. Makes sense?

Anup@13
या मुझको यभी चुप रेह्यने दो I think this is Bengali influence, Geeta is a repeat offender of this and in vintage songs when Bengal was dominating HFM even Urdu speaking singers have done that.Venkataramanji can confirm or deny this.

Wonderful theme!
Unlike N Venkataraman ji,I studied Hindi in School ( 5 years) as a compulsory subject and college ( 2 years) as an optional language. While taking admission to class 11,my Principal tried every trick in his trade to dissuade me from choosing Hindi over Sanskrit. He had rightly said it would affect my overall score and state ranking. Sanskrit students got 90_100% routinely whereas 80_85% would be the highest someone could score in Hindi. As predicted by him,it did make me miss the top 10 ranks, though my Major subjects ( Physics, Chemistry, Mathematics, Biology score was 98%).
Grammar has always excited me,be it in Kannada, English or Hindi. I keep on nitpicking and point out the most minor grammatical errors also! My wife’s rejoinder_ You are a Doctor and not a Bhasha Pandit!
The basic question I want to ask every Hindi speaking member is:
Can baahar ( out/ outside) be pronounced as bahaar? It’s seen in many songs. For me bahaar always denotes the mausam.
I also felt ‘ ib’ enhanced the quality of the song.

AK,
In “ना कजरे की धार” , धार is Hindi word and feminine.
But the word “Dhaaraa” ( notधार) used in the other song is a Urdu word according to presenter of the program I mentioned.
I think there is a sort of symmetry.
Tu Ganga ki mauj is about ‘her’ and ‘main Jamuna का dhaara’ is about him.
This should be settled by Urdu Scholars.
I do not have my Urdu dictionary in Devanagari with me now to verify.

AKji @ 12; Dr. Shetty @ 27:

Hindi has been enriched by so many influences that it may be difficult to declare a pronunciation the ‘correct’ one. The way ‘Gyaneshwar’ (or ‘Jnaneshwar’) is pronounced in the north differs from that in the south, or the west. Old Hindi primers contain an extended Devanagari alphabet with several letters that are no longer used in the current simplified version of Hindi. The pronunciation of these letters is also slowly being lost (in the north). For instance, the Malayalam ‘zh’ was probably part of the extended Devanagari, but now I would find it difficult to pronounce.

The presence of Dr. Shetty amongst us reminds me that Karnataka probably has a justifiable claim to maintaining the highest standard of Sanskrit literacy in the country. A visit to either Mattur or Hosahalli village in the state would transport one back to the land of Raja Bhoj and the woodcutter—Sanskrit is the language of day-to-day conversation in these villages.

https://theculturetrip.com/asia/india/articles/mattur-and-hosahalli-the-two-villages-in-india-that-still-speak-sanskrit/

In our homes we had been used to listening to ‘Vishnu Sahastranam’. In Karnataka, they listen instead to ‘Vishnu Sahasranam’, which appears to be the correct form (except, perhaps, in Gujarat). I have learnt, therefore, to respect the way people in the south in general, and the Kannadigas in particular, pronounce things. Thus, the Kannadiga’s pronunciation of ‘gruh’ (where ‘u’ is a sound that is shorter than ‘i’ and ‘ee’) now appears more ‘consistent’ to me. Consider the words ‘trijya’ (radius) and ‘trutiya’ (third) in Hindi. Most of my friends from the north would pronounce the first vowel in both words identically!

AKji @ 28:

“The earlier phrase was ‘Ganga ki mauj’, and ‘ki’ would have given it symmetry.” Sometimes avoiding the expected symmetry may create a more charming effect. Consider the Majrooh duet ‘Dil pukaare, aare aare aare/ Abhi naa jaa mere saathi’ (Rafi, Lata in ‘Jewel Thief’; MD: SDB):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYjy6StBg3E

Had the lyricist been Anand Bakshi, the second line would probably have ended with the more expected, symmetrical (but banal) ‘pyaare’!

AK,
A very interesting article. Congratulations.
When I did schooling in Tamilnadu in the fifties and early sixties, Hindi was taught in government/municipal schools! And we had a very good Hindi teacher who used to even stage Hindi plays with Hindi songs set to popular film tunes! But all the teachings didn’t help me with spoken Hindi when I went north. I had forgotten all the grammar by the time I was in college. But Hindi films came to my rescue in re-learning the language. But I never noticed the grammar. And the few Urdu words I learnt were by observing the lyrics, which I started much later. I am unfit to make any contribution to this post but I am learning more and enjoying the comments by experts.
Venkatraman ji,
Your saying that you know little about grammar of the language only shows your humility. You are able to point out the differences in grammars of European languages. You are an encyclopedia or as per the modern times, Google personified.

AK, I must congratulate and thank you for this article. Importance of it is clear from the fact that our encyclopaedia Arunji was the first to comment. I agree with his, your and others’ concern about the falling standards of languages and I would include English also. About hindi even NCERT is doing tricks. They are focussing on ‘nukta’ which was never part of hindi alphabet to please urdu supporters. On govt. channels excessive use of this nukta in news reading have been going on for years. I was in Deptt of Official Languages for more than 8 years. Although mostly I was connected with administrative jobs but there was a lot of interaction with hindi scholars and they also showed concern in these areas.

Many friends have commented on many things. I would also like to comment on many things. But, first I would give my opinion on the ongoing discussion. First धारा. This is feminine without any doubt. There is no word like धारा in urdu. In fact there is no word starting with ‘dha’ in a urdu dictionary which I have and it is written by a very famous scholar. The reason as per my understanding is that there is no alphabet in urdu which can write ‘dha’. Regarding Mumbaikar8 suggestion that ‘ki’ would have appeared odd for a hero, I would say we have a very famous song ‘tere man ki ganga or mere man ki jamuna ka’ where ‘ki’ does not look odd. Rather ‘ka’ would have looked odd there, because ‘ki’ is being used for ganga and jamuna. Now ‘jamuna ka dhara’ does not look odd because we have been listening to it since ages. I think this innovation was made by Naushad who used to interfere in lyrics writing of Shakeel. Shakeel was always happier writing for Ravi and produced some great lyrics because he had more freedom to write there.

Regarding ‘sahasra’ or ‘sahastra’ mentioned by Canasya, I would say that the word is ‘sahastra’ both in hindi and sanskrit and its pronunciation is also the same. I have confirmed it from a relative who is a sanskrit teacher with state award. About ‘grih’ or ‘gruh’ AK had already replied and as he says the alphabet is ‘ri’ in hindi and its ‘maatra’ is used in ‘grih’. It would be very strange if we are guided by the pronunciation of hindi words by kannada people. Similarly it would be strange if kannada people would take lessons from haryanvis for pronunciation of kannada words.

I wanted to say some general things which may be kept in mind while interpreting the songs, but I find Dinesh has already said most of them. I would second him and say that written prose and verse are two different things. The poets – the proper poets not filmy ones – have always used adaptations of the prose. Many of there adaptations were accepted and became proper words but many were not, but nobody said they wrote incorrect language. This is true for every language. If you take any poem of a great poet you will words which are not there in the dictionary. Also written and spoken language are always different. For example we always write रवि and कवि, but in spoken language I have never found a person using short vowel in these words except for कविता पाठ. As Dinesh says there is a poetic licence, which gets more liberal for film lyrics because there is always a mixture of various languages and bolis. The songs being different from poetry because they are also spoken poetry, that can make them more diverse.

Since Dinesh has also raised the ‘kaune kaune’ issue, I would like to say that we speak ओ as ‘o’ and औ as ‘au’ when we recite the hindi alphabet, but in practice the long vowel औ is always spoken as ‘o’. We call सौर as ‘sor’ and गौर as gor and only in very few words like कौवा we pronounce it as ‘kauwa’. So ‘kone’ was always likely to be pronounced as it was pronounced. I would agree here with AK that the problem was with Lata’s diction which was quite raw in those days but she was saying only ‘kone’.

Regarding सोर and शोर I would like to tell one more fact that actually सोर is the original hindi word and शोर has its roots in फ़ारसी, though it has replaced सोर itself. If शोर was an original hindi word, even then use of सोर in the song was perfect because he was teaching a folk song.

A much needed post on HFM, which sadly will not mean much to present generation because study of Hindi in schools is not taken as seriously nowaday as it was in the past. When we were in school, Bachchan meant Hariwanshrai Bachchan and not Amitabh Bachchan, and we knew Gopal Singh Nepali as a poet whose poem was there in out text books.

It is quite jarring when an otherwise great song is marred by incorrect pronounciation of words. To make matters worse, even the singer is not aware of wrong pronounciation. And this fact escapes the attention of even the lyricist, who thinks that his job is over when he hands over the lyrics to the music director. Lyricist noticing how the song was being sung by the singer could have rescued these songs if only they were present when the song was being sung by the singer.

For instance, I find that Asha Bhonsle has alway pronounced झूठा as झूटा in all her songs and this has gone unnoticed. I find it quite jarring.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in7rr0d0rlE
Jhoothha kahin ka mujhe aisa mila

The elder sister has massacred a great song by pronouncing the same word (a variation of it) even more atrociously. She has pronounced झूठों as जूतों in this famous song of “Do Aankhen Baarah Haath”. Listen to the song सैंया झूठों का बड़ा सरताज निकला. She sings it as सैंया जूतों का बड़ा सरताज निकला

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmJIwOU9r40

AKji @ 36,
Thank you for sharing the write-up from the WhatsApp group. I also appreciate the writer Manas Chakravarty who is reflective and self-aware enough to poke fun at his native tongue and have good laugh at himself. A rare quality indeed. By the way it reminds me of Lily Chakravarty uttering the word ‘Trunk call’ as ‘Trank call’ in the film ‘Chupke Chupke’ (1975). The Bengali influence as Mumbaikarji has mentioned in reference to Geeta Dutt.

Another point to be noted; in the same film Hrishikesh Mukherjee had the presence of mind to include a polite message in the form of a conversation between Dharmendra and David.
Dh: Bhaiyya ek hi baat buri lag rahi hai; kisi bhi bhasha ka mazaq udana Ghatiyapan hai; Mai vahi kar raha hun; Woh bhi apni matri bhasha ka.
Dvd: Tum bhasha ka mazaq nahi kar rahe ho; ek aadmi ki mazaq kar rahe ho. Bhasha to apne aap me itna mahaan hoti hai uska mazaq kiya nahi jaa sakta.

On a lighter vein, not exactly related to grammatical genders, colloquial Bengali does not make any distinction between eating and drinking. Everything is eaten. Rosogolla Khabo, Cigarette Khabo, Jal Khabo etc etc. So now no one says “pan koribo”. But in Ancient Bengali and in “Sadhu Bhasa”, “pan koribo” was used. But that is their language. And they are Ok with it. One may find such peculiarities in other languages too.

Again another peculiarity. In Assamese the letter Sha becomes kha – nishedh becomes nikhedh. However, saahas becomes haahakh, that is, sa is pronounced like ha at the beginning of a word and elsewhere like kha.

Cansyaji has mentioned about the letter ‘zh’ or ‘zha’ in Malayalam, which I think is peculiar to both Tamil and Malayalam. In fact it is not Tamil, the actual word is Tamizh. During our childhood we were given a tongue twister/ sentence to get the right pronunciation of this letter ‘zh’. Ezhai Kizhavan vaazhai pazha tholil vazhukki vizhundaan. It means ‘Poor old man slipped on the banana peel’.

Coming back to ‘Chupke Chupke’ (1975), I was fascinated by the phrase ‘Loh Path gami Agni Rath’. Incidentally ‘Chupke Chupke’ was the remake of the 1971 Bengali film ‘Chadmabeshi’ pronounced as Chaddha Beshi in Bengali, the Hindi equivalent, I think, should be Chadmaveshi. Another doubt, is it Loh Path Gami, or Loh Path Gamini?

Here are two links from the film. See the ‘Utpeedan’ Jeejajee has to face due to his obsession for a ‘Shuddh’ Hindi speaking driver (Pyare Mohan Illahabadi)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KesDULZvvb4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAGWcu-5-rg

Is ‘Dhara’ in ‘IPC Dhara ki 307’ feminine gender?

AK @53
Rather I am surprised at you. Have you never written or heard the word ‘sahastra’ in hindi in your lifetime.

I had contacted my relative only for the pronunciation of the word in sanskrit. This word ‘sahastra’ is spoken as such in hindi I knew perfectly. I have a hindi dictionary by Nagri Pracharini Sabha, Kashi and a sanskrit dictionary by Rastriya Sanskrit Sansthan. In both of them this word is present. It is written there as first sa, then ha then a combo of sa and tra, which is in hindi alphabet as one of the three joint akhshars. When ‘sra’ is printed it comes as a ‘ra’ under the normal ‘sa’ but when ‘tra’ is printed both – the horizontal bar of ‘sa’ as well as that of tra are slightly curved to denote ‘tra’. Most of the students wrote it wrongly and our teachers took pains to make us understand these curves and we were made to write these words multiple times.

I have the full set of Vedas and also Geeta. In both the places you mentioned the word ‘sahastra’ is printed like that while those mentioned by you only show ‘ra’ under ‘sa’. This is because in the hindi keyboards the three joint letters are missing. Also most of the persons responsible for digitisation of these ancient shashtras do not understand that this word is ‘sahastra’ and they read it as ‘sahasra’. I request you to check with these books if you have them and you will know the difference.

There is a novel trend to dispense with these joint letters in hindi. If you stand with advocates of this trend, then it was futile to write this post where you are fighting for the correct language. Even if the joint letters disappear from internet versions, the ‘sahastra’ will remain ‘sahastra’ in every shashtra whether it was any veda, purana or geeta or ramayan or mahabharat, because that has already been printed.

Nanjappaji @3
In hindi इक and एक are one and the same. There are a number of compound words starting with इक which highlight its meaning i.e. one. इकठ्ठा, इकतारा, इकलौता, are some of the words. Besides these all the numbers with content of one are pronounced with इक at the start except eleven.

AK, @ 28
I don’t know if “jh” would sound harsh but “hum ko tum se” makes it a “Bombay’s mechanic” song.

Anup @32
I am a Maharashtrian, three to four generations born and lived in Mumbai but I am not Marathi speaking Maharashtrian. My last name is Lakhani I belong to a business-oriented community, our last name usually end with “ani” like Sindhis. (other business community)

Back to Dhara and dhar I think Dhar had two different meaning like paani ki dhar or doodh ki dhar is similar to dhara but kajre ki dhar is like chaku ki dhar.

Atul @51 AK @ 54
जूठ बोलता हैं in Hindi is खोट बोलतय in Marathi, this be reason why Asha pronounced झूठा as झूटा. Namak Haram song Kishore sings झूटा but the chorus sings it right.

Hans @ 62
I had the same understanding but Ak disagreed, languages, as it is, are hard for me to interpret, that’s why I like Maths where 2 + 2 is always 4

Notes On : व्याकरण, उच्चारण और उत्पीड़न

The post is remarkable as it is different than just creating a post on songs of some subjects like Barasaat, birds or marriage etc. It actually looks at the way lyrics are written and songs are sung. One should praise the author without any reservations. Along with him equally the admiration should go to all the participants in comments section as well. A very satisfying time of reading the post!
Now I put in my say as well and I hope AK and other readers would take it in their stride.

The story of Bhojraja and the Wood carrier needs some good understanding about folk stories and their purposes. The story’s two meanings and conclusions are debatable.

The conclusions that AK draws from it looks as if taking the story as the fact based document.

Another story of Bhojraja and Kalidas in which Kalidas was carrying a fish home as he was fond of eating fish and suddenly he saw Bhojraja riding on the horse back and was sure he was going to accost and button holding him about the fish eating habit of Kalidas. (Carrying fish or meat openly was not a good manner in the Indian society then and I think still now a days as India presents herself as vegetarian country)

Surely he does. He asks him what Kalidas was hiding under his arm. Kalidas says Pustakam- a book! Bhojraja asks him “how come the book is dripping the water? Kalidas answers,” The book is full of “Ras”- juice”. Bhojraja smiles and says “All right go home quickly and enjoy it before it drops out all its “ras” and becomes dry.”

All this dialogue is in Sanskrit. So this shows that Bhojraja was very competent in Sanskrit to have a tussle with Kalidas a master of Sanskrit!

But I shall not go as far to draw that Sanskrit was a regular “Bol-Bhasha!” at any time. Prakrit languages were “Bol-Bhashanye.”

The so called Sanskrit Bhasha was the language of bookish literatures and philosophical wrangling-debating language of the Pundits as Shashtries in Kashi and accordingly were allowed to be talked by Brahmins and Kshatriyas only.

Even women of both Brahmins and Kshtriyas were not allowed to use Sanskrit as a talking language.

The word versions of Kis and Kees may not be grammatically correct but work in the music where words needed to be sung differently due to the emotional and musical contents in the presentations of the two songs. To me both the versions are right for the singers and acted out by the artists differently.

What is so far not discussed is the eternal question as “What was first Chicken or Egg?
Likewise “Was the grammar first or spoken language first?”

Next discussion about “dawa and daba” though interesting there again my understanding will be as both correct as there are two different meanings of the two similar words but not identical in meanings.

Next discussion about Bhimsen Joshi’s bending of the word of लागी instead of लागे could be right for his singing and he should not have been ticked off for grammar. Artists need artistic freedom for their art.
Once in my discussion with C.Ramchandra I raised a point. In his musical film SARGAM 1950 there is a scene of a singer’s concert which was very much financially supported by a rich but dubious person. A professional person was singing “Ab Baajan Lagè Dho…….” The singer repeated this version and did not finish the word “Dho which was Dhol”. Heroine Rehana and her sisters make fun of him. The singer is hooted out. Then Rehana acts out the famous song “Sa Re Ga Re Sa” that tells how the classical songs should be sung.
I asked C.Ramchandra what was the point of humiliating the classical singer? He answered that it was not all classical singers were humiliated but many classical singers takes advantage of their establishment and stretch the words too far to make their singing stretching too far and also this kind of act makes the good audiences get their patience stretched.

Here one should understand that the singing of Bhimsen Joshi was also very visual and he too stretched his gestures and facial expression too far. But Panditji was on higher plain and criticising him is not fair.

Next point is about AK getting riled about TV presenter personality about their grammar being incorrect.

The success of Hindi films and its culture became very famous. Once that was hated now Indian politicians chase it for their purposes for example a “Film on Modi” is released at the election time.

Many political champions use videos as part of their campaign talk. Etc etc.

So Hindi language became very necessary for the use of it. It may not be the language of great literatures like Bengali Tamil etc. etc.

Here I want to make two points: One is Hindi being India’s national language and it has to be included the impressions that it is accessible to all. Second is how far Hindi should be an ideal language when there are no hoity toity standards.

Once in Britain there was a standard on BBC of Oxbridge language. Now as the need of the common people all kinds of language expressions are allowed for democracy reasons. That is making democracy work. There are numerous presenters from the north whose English once was mocked about. Similar kind of things happened about Black people’s English, Indian English which was mocked more than any other. There is a famous song by Peter Seller who sang “Oh Doctor my heart goes boom! Boom!” in the Indian accent. Ever since when Indians talked they were laughed at and imitated in the Peter Sellers famous song.

But not any more now! The need of the democracy and respect for all languages and accents in English are now much cherished demands in films, TV/ Radio and even in the Parliament and education institutes and also at the various jobs. One can see a Afro-British person holding the position of a bank manager and talking in her accent.

Shalan Lal.

AK ji, Hans ji , Mumbaikar 8 ‘ji, Venkatraman ji;

With my micro mini knowledge of Hindi and Sanskrit it is difficult to score a goal when sitting on the, last but one, bench of the class of 1958 when I was in 6th standard . My memory of Sanskrit is limited to ….Tuwam Kutar Gachhasie ?….Ahem Paathshala Gachhamie/ . A few lines of shaloks…..Chandanam Sheetalam Loke. ….and…Kaka Pike Pike Kaake .

You cannot score a goal when you are sitting on the bench. To do so, you have to dress up and enter the game. One thing i liked the most was the dress sense of our teachers . The Hindi and Sanskrit Sir ,most of the time, wore Dhoti Kurta and jacket with head gear like loose turban in cotton white or in white Nehru Cap . I am not aware of the current call of the dress sense …..vis a vis..the subject they teach.

For some students ….the authority of those who teach …..was often an obstacle to those who don’t want to learn .. First bench students solved many problems but last bench students faced many problems ! “last Bench don’t disturb ” …..was frequent call of the teacher. Many repented later on when many students scored very high marks in sanskrit …that made up their scoring grades.

But my handwriting skills made up for my less doing. I was first ranker in Hindi, English calligraphy as well as best student in Geometrical and mechanical drawing. That made me quite popular….and gained respect too….[teacher knowingly I being the son of a high ranked officer in Ministry of Education ].

As I recall Sanskrit in cinema ….my mind goes to the beautiful act played by Shammi Kapoor in Professor …in which Lalita Powar ask him to teach sanskrit to her two daughters . The film was fun to watch with some very good acting and beautiful music by Shankar Jaikishan.

In the famous song of RK’s Sangam two words are repeated twice and convey different meanings. We have sung this song many times but never dwealt upon to know more of it . ….Dost dost na raha , Pyar pyar na raha… . As I see…Dost dost…meaning Friend friendship….and…Pyar pyar meaning Beloved love . If I am not correct …well say nay.

One more male dhara from shama parwana 1954. By Majrooh again.
मौज ख़ामोश हैं, बहता हुआ धारा ठहरा
At about 01:34 in the song

https://youtu.be/_2j96gjm0_4

So, it was used in both the genders it seems.

Anup @71
Good find.

And what should we call this!
A word is broken into two pieces, so as to suit the tune or the meter of the song.
Jaltarang
Loot gayi ummedon ki duniya
By Lata Mangeshkar
बैरी हैं बेदर्द जमाना
The word bedard is split into two parts while singing.
बैरी हैं बे a distinct pause दर्द जमाना

Here, the lyricist is not at fault. First of all, whether we should call it a fault?
Or just an adjustment or compromise to fit the words in the tune.

https://youtu.be/90x2phpwsK4

It’s otherwise an excellent song one of my great favourites by Lata – HB duo.

Everyone, please opine.

Bhatiaji @69,
As Akji has said, I too love reading your anecdotes. They have a special flavour.

“You cannot score a goal when you are sitting on the bench. To do so, you have to dress up and enter the game”.

You have entered the game during the extra time. But that does not deter old guards like you in scoring goals and taking the game away from the opponents, a la Rummenigge. The same applies to Shalanji too. Rummenigge was a legendary German footballer. During the 1982 World Cup he had to sit out on the benches due to injury problems. In the semi finals against France, West Germany was locked in a 1-1 draw at the end of regulation time (90 minutes). In the extra time France scored twice to take the lead to 2-1. Rummenigge took the field a few minute before France’s third goal, scored a goal and if I remember right had a hand in getting the equalizer. Finally Germany won on penalty shoot out to enter the finals and Rummenigge too scored from his penalty shot.

“For some students ….the authority of those who teach …..was often an obstacle to those who don’t want to learn .”

Pankaj Jha, teacher Sanskrit thought of an innovative idea to rouse the interest of the students in Sanskrit. . A student wanted to know if Sanskrit dealt only with old stories and shlokas. He told him there were songs as well. The kid then challenged him to render a Sanskrit version of the recently released song Dheere Dheere Se Meri Zindagi by Honey Singh. He translated the entire song in the class.

The Hindi song ‘Aaja sanam madhur chandni main hum’ was translated by one Rajendra Bhave and sung by his son Shrirang Bhave in a contest organized by DD National channel in which Mr Bhave (Sanskrit Scholar) Stood First.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbhOfpGoJMk

AK @63
I have made my point clear. I know sahastra appears a number of times because that has been a long standing theory of hinduism that gods have sahastramukh, sahastrabahu, sahastrapad etc. which Bharat Vyas used in the song ‘ye kaun chitrakar hai’ which Tyagiji mentioned. I have told that I used to pronounce it a sahastra and also know it to be sahastra. I asked you the question but you did not answer me whether you ever pronounced it as sahastra. Canasya is perhaps from your region and he has said in comment 35 that they have been listening to visnu sahastranam, but the correct form is sahasranam which kannada people follow. I have no problem in taking it as sahasra, if somebody can convince me that it is the correct form. Otherwise it is very difficult because I have never found anybody around me in our area pronouncing it other than sahastra. The relative whom I mentioned is not a simple teacher. He despite not being a Pandit by birth is called by many for Hawans and other such functions, so he knows what he is saying.

AK ji @70;

Thanks for your kind words.

Dress sense always makes a nice statement. I on my part always liked to see my Teachers in best of their dresses , though there was hardly any fashions during early 50s. The fashion trend picked up only after mid 50s when most of the senior students picked up drain pipes trousers. The early birds were….booooed….by juniors and some of the senior students were shy wearing those drain pipes. Rest…..1956, 1957 …song from Anari tells it all .

AK ji @78;

I think no one can beat Utpal Dutt’s ” ..eeeeeeesh'”….in Golmaal . Watch @4.15…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvrOsFqH2TY&t=193s

AK
I have made myself very clear. I have not found anything to change my view. I have frankly stated my position. I dont know what harm you are seeing in answering my question. Since you are deciding what is relevant or not for the discussion, it would be hardly fruitful to discuss it even on mail.

N Venkatraman ji;

I live my day and night dreams in music……and my heart and mind becomes means of refuge of the most beautiful melodies simple and inevitable.Without music live decorations turns still . Evening for me is my time to listen to instrumentals…..no lyrics no words ….only orchestra musical scores of the kind of ….101 strings orchestra …or/and andre Reiu . Music with dinner is always a complement to the cook and the violin strings.

Just looking for some blue sky songs and hit upon…..Aa neel gagan tale…no….neel gagan pe udte badal….no…neele neele amber pe…..no…still trying but not connected to the right one . Yes, Neele Aasmani bujho to yeh babu….famous Geeta Dutt song from Mr. & Mrs 55 . One colour Two names !! Neele and Aasmani both Blue . I think this song is one of the rare melody of its kind. Guru Dutt and his Cameraman did splendid work shooting the song and recording every person’s expression . Watch and Enjoy…..

Neele Aasmani Bujho To | Mr & Mrs 55 (1955) | Geeta Dutt …OPN

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgVoExvvSqU

Hans @ 90
“Actually Rafi could do anything.” Completely agree with you, no doubt about his talent, that is the reason I argued with AK when he compared Gardeeesh with Kaveeeeta.
“I think ‘jarring’ is the word used by AK which should define what is wrongly sung.” I feel Mera Naam Joker “Gardeesh” ‘jaring’.

@ Prashant ji,
The example I talked about, was with the song,
Lut gayi ummedon ki duniya from Jaltarang.
The first stanza has the first sentence, बैरी हैं बेदर्द जमाना

While singing, the word bedard, was split into two,
बे and दर्द , to fit the tune.
The spilt is quite evident, in my opinion.
It’s can’t be said a fault, but still!

I don’t remember any similar example.

@Hans ji,
It’s then settled that, dhara is used in both the genders. Not only in film songs, but in real life too.

@Ashwin ji,
That means even pawan is used in both the genders, at least in Hindi film songs.

Anup@97,
When I first heard ‘Ehsan tera’ (Junglee), not being familiar with Hindi/Urdu, I thought that it was. ‘yeh hai saan tera’!
By the way, can the experts enlighten me on the following:
Does Urdu follow the same grammar as Hindi?
While the Bombay film industry, particularly HFM had people from Bengal, Punjab, Maharashtra etc.,how come Urdu dominated the lyrics (and to some extent the dialogues as well)

Ak ji,
This post is bereft of songs. So just to inject some melody….( Bhatiaji will agree with me)

The Tamizh poet and lyricist Vairamutthu once said ‘Zha’ is the beauty of Tamizh and even ‘Zha’ is the beauty of beauty too (தமிழுக்கு ‘ழ’ அழகு, அழகுக்கு கூட ‘ழ’ தான் அழகு). The Tamizh word for Beauty is ‘Azhagu’. I am providing a link to a song penned by Vairamutthu which has not only the above line but every line in the song ends with ‘Azhagu’ (somewhat similar to Ghazals). I know all this may sound jarring’ to the people not initiated in Tamizh. But Giriji, Ranganji, Ashwinji, Canasyaji and others may be able to appreciate tghe lyrics, other s may enjoy the melody.

The music was by A R Rehman. The tune may sound familiar, since it was reprised in the Hindi film Vishwavidhata. The lyrics of the Hindi version carries the overall sentiment of the original.

There were two versions, male & female.

Tamizh male version by Unni Menon ,”Kannukku Mai Azhagu”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGKNDeZEcxs&lc=UghOfXfzfhb0LngCoAEC

Hindi male version by Hariharan, “Kaliyon Se Palkhen Hain”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsFyQhwcZUg

Tamizh female version by P Susheela,”Kannukku Mai Azhagu”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzjIZdTThvs

Hindi Female version by Kavita Krishnamurthy, Nazron Ke Milne Se
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3SiDzqYx9M

Ashwin ji @ 96,
you can call me Anup!

Hans ji @ 98,
actually I don’t have a problem with splitting the word into two. That why, I asked if that should be taken as a fault or not! It’s just that, while going through all the comments, I remembered it and so I thought let’s ask others, what they think about it! When I first heard the song, I found it funny. How a word is broken into two, just to fit into a tune? But later it started irritating me! Now, thinking of it again, could it be just a pause for breathing?

Giri ji @ 99,
While I could not remember any other song with the split words, you were really spot on to remember the Junglee song!
Yes, there is a split! Eh (a gap, or we can say, it is stretched a bit too long) saan tera hoga.
So it’s quite natural that at first you may not understand it correctly!
And as Venkatramanji say @ 102
both the words, Ehsaan & hoga are stretched long while singing.

Anup

AKji,
Not at all Akji. I must be a fool to consider you as ignorant. Your suggestion/ preference was precisely due to the reason pointed out in your comment. I should have mentioned that in my comment.

Canasyaji, AKji,
@ 110, 111.
Main Qafir to nahin – apparently, you are right in declaring the lyrics as absurd. But, one possible meaning also seems likely and perhaps Anand Bakhshi purported that way : I am not a non believer but I really learnt worshipping properly only after seeing you.

AKji,
Now, on a lighter note, what tickles me really is your angry dictat to Raj Kapoor to do some ‘kulli’. And you see he has fulfilled your wish, of course many years later. In Mera Naam Joker, Raj Kapoor in a scene enacted with the actress Padmini, is literally shown rinsing his mouth, doing ‘kulli’ to be more precise.
I, on my part, sang the line ‘Nikal pade hain …….’ once with ‘khuli” and then with ‘
‘khulli’. It feels comfortable both ways, no meter or rhyming difficulty.
Perhaps, Shalendra’s son might know why his father wrote ‘khulli’. Shalendra must not have done it without reason.

Canasyaji, AKji,Shachindraji,

Two minor observations…..

1. RK story took off….Khhullii sadak pe [ Shree 420 ] ….where Charlie Chaplin left road at the end of Modern Times [1936 ] . The end of Shree 420 is also quite similar to Modern Times.

Charlie Chaplin – Modern Times ending (1936)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3aQkfIvx6k

Mera Joota Hai Japani Part 2 | Shree 420 (1955)Mukesh |Lata Mangeshkar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRZK_NXQloY

2. Main shhair to nahin….Bobby [ 1973 ] song is loosely based on the theme title music of BR ‘s Dastaan [1972] movie . This LP’s tune was played at many places as background music …….including Sharmila Tagore playing on Piano . Such stock tunes becomes handy when need arises. Well Shankar Jaikishan’s background score had plenty of tunes that awaited their turn to finish up in songs .

Listen to Dastaan Title music

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdnm53BoWQ0&t=7967s

Another matter is ‘ehsaan tera hoga mujh par’. I think this word has not been split in this song. Ehsaan is a two syllable word ‘eh’ and ‘saan’. In reading prose the two or more syllable words have different stresses but they still appear joint. But, in singing the stress on one syllable or different levels of stress may give different results. In singing the stress is always more pronounced. See how Rafi sings ‘muhabbat’ – a three syllable word ‘ differently at different places. In the first antara he starts ‘tumne mujhko hansna sikhaya’ and repeats it. While in the first line he uses short vowel for ‘tumne’, but in the repeat ‘tumne’ the ‘u’ is slightly elongated though it is not long vowel. Such variations occur very commonly in songs. Film songs are not the only ones doing these variations. If you listen to classical vocal singing, there you will find even more variations.

AK, Canasya, Hans and others

भूल भुलैया: Bhool-Bhalaiya of the” Sahasra and Sahastra”

Following references:
38 AK towards end: “PS. And ‘Sahasra’ is correct, and not ‘Sahastra’.

Hans @ 47
“Regarding ‘sahasra’ or ‘sahastra’ mentioned by Canasya, I would say that the word is ‘sahastra’ both in hindi and sanskrit and its pronunciation is also the same. I have confirmed it from a relative who is a sanskrit teacher with state award”

AK @ 53
“On ‘sahasra’/‘sahastra’, I am surprised at your scholar relative. This word occurs in many well known texts. Purush Sukta’s (Rigveda 10.90) first verse is:
सहस्रशीर्षा पुरुष: सहस्राक्ष: सहस्रपात् (‘sahasra’ is used thrice). Gita’s 8.17 uses the word twice: ‘sahasrayugparyantam’ and ‘yugsahasraantaam’ (सहस्रयुगपर्यन्तम्, युगसहस्रान्ताम्), and again in 11.46 ‘sahasrabaaho’ (सहस्रबाहो). And of course the ‘Sahasranaam’ available everywhere. Or did you mean that ‘sahasra’ is correct?”

Hans @ 59
Extremely good pointed discussed about the word “Sahastra”.

AK @ 63
“I checked up three texts of Gita, including one from Gita Press, Gorakhpur. All the three texts write सहस्र consistently.”
Now my say
4.16
Kĭṃ kărămă kĭmăkărămètĭ kăvăyo-ăpyătră mohĭtāḥ
Tăt tè kărămă prăvăkṣhyāmĭ yăjjdñyātvā mokṣhyăsè-ăshŭbhāt 4.16

What is action and what is inaction? In this debate even the erudite
Are confused; so I shall define it; knowing it will free you from the evil. 4.16 Bhagvad Gita

Bhool-Bhalaiya of the Sahasra and Sahastra: in this debate even the erudite are confused. So I shall give some pointers and the interested may get some light.

It certainly is very confusing when the two words are very similar in sounds but not identical and also as written in the Devanagari script.

My understanding is in Sanskrit numbering system: Ekam, Dasham, Shatam, Sahstram, Dashsahstram, Laxam etc.

There is no such word as “Sahasram”. It is in colloquial languages due to it has becoming Apbrhmsh of the “Sahastra”.

The “Apbramsh” is one of the Prakrit languages like Paali, Maagadhi, Ardhamagadhi, Shaurseni etc. These languages came into existence after the original languages of those provinces got mixed up with the Sanskrit.

Scholars say that the Sanskirt language became a rigid framework, too bounded by the laws of Vyakaran and also its claiming that it was the Dev-Vani to be talked only by the Divinities, the males of Brahmins and Kshatriyas only.

Others had to use the Prakrit languages.

Until the Middle Ages the books in Sanskrit were not allowed to be translated into any other languages as it was believed that the process would pollute the sacredness of the celestial language.

It was also believed that the eating meat would find the tongue rigid to speak words correctly which was very much needed according to the Pundits and Shashtries

Now about the position of AK:
In the comment @ 53 AK has quoted some quotations as following:
“On ‘sahasra’/‘sahastra’, I am surprised at your scholar relative. This word occurs in many well known texts. Purush Sukta’s (Rigveda 10.90) first verse is: etc. etc. ……….
and more could be viewed at the @comment 53

Further on AK has dug himself firmly in the hole of his position deeply and it will be very difficult for him to move out as at comment @ 63 he hold his view:
AK @ 63
“I checked up three texts of Gita, including one from Gita Press, Gorakhpur. All the three texts write सहस्र consistently.”

As AK has taken this view he is unable to see that all the quotations he has given @ 53 and at 64 have been the words “सहस्र” which if he could enlarge would see that they are not “Sahasra” but are .“Sahastra”.

I too have a copy of the Gorakhpur “Shrimad Bhagavad Gita Aur Vishnu Sahatranaam”.

The “VishnusahatranaamStotram” starts clearly on page number 111and if you look at the words “Sahastram and Stotram closely in Shri Vishnusahastranaam you will find the”Sahastra and Tra in Stotram. The word Sahastram is made from the triple joint of the words of Sahas-tra and the “tra” is the same as from Stontram where the Tra is very clear.
My copy of the Gorkhapur has price of “Das Naye Paise” and “Saitaliswan Sanskaran” on the back of first page.

In Bhagvad Gita Arjun suffered from the mental delusion and Lord God Shri Krishna had to show him his cosmic form though Arjun says at the beginning of chapter 11 that his delusion has gone. He repeats it at the end of chapter 18 as well.

Sorry to say that I have no power of giving AK “Divya Chakshu” to make him see the word “Sahastra” if he does not want to see it. One can take a horse to the water but one cannot make it drink.
But there is an ultimate authority and that is the following contact:
Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute
812, Shivajinagar, Chiplunkar Road,
(ILS Law College Road,) Pune 411004, India.
Telephone and Email:
Tel. : +91-20 – 25656932
E-mail : bhandarkarinstitute@gmail.com
Bhandarkar institute is 102 years old and ever since they have been producing corrected versions of the Sacred Books of the Hindu Culture.
In their list they have Vedas and Mahabharat corrected versions.

There is a lot I can say but it will need a separate post.

Shalan Lal

Venkataramanji @ 100

Thanks for giving s further information on and Tamizh.
I have heard people pronouncing Tamil as तमिण.
In the video of pazham pori I can hear them pronouncing it as पाररहम or पारणहम पुरी. What is the correct pronunciation?
BTW in Maharashstra we have paratha made with dal stuffing which is called पूरण पोरी

Hans @112
I have not seen the interview, I read it and did copy and paste.
I will try to search it and post the site.
I agree with you “sun sun sun sun zalima’ is for the addressee and not for the addresser. So sun sun has nothing to do with either humko or mujhko” but it does for tumko tujhko.
Seems Guru Dutt wanted it to sound like, what we call in Mumbai, “Tapori language” and humko tumse serves the purpose.
I cannot imagine how “pyaar humko tujhse” would sound.

Yaadon instead of Yaadein in Film: Sanjog

Bhoolee hui yaadon……….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpO4vUGXFyE

Canasya @106
I have no confusion. I know the sahastra of hindi which I distinctly remember our teacher took pains so that we learn to write it the correct way. I know that hindi is the closest to sanskrit, because both were born and bred in the same area. From our area to your area sahastra is present. I dont know about gujarati. ‘Tra’ is missing from the alphabets of kannada, telugu, marathi and gujarati and malyalam. Tamil does without many other sounds too. So for me they cannot guide sanskrit or hindi people for sounds in the north region. I would like to say further that at present even sahastra has lost its relevance because ‘hazaar’ is being used in its place universally. But sahastra cannot go out of the old publications.

Since you and AK and a few others are really concerned with the fate of Hindi, I would like to relate here a small but important incident which happened when I was in Department of Official Languages. I told earlier that I was dealing with Cadre work of various Hindi posts spread in various departments of Govt of India. It so happened that one Mr. Gupta who was dealing with constitutional work relating to the Official Language Act, 1963, retired. He was handling the files relating to amendments in the OL Act. He routinely put up a file with draft amendment bill whenever Parliament started a knew session. This was going on for a number of years without the amendment bill being taken up and is perhaps still going the same way. I am referring to the time period of about 1988.

This is a small Department with mostly hindi knowing people and I was the only other person who could handle English noting and I had some knowledge of legal matters too because of my administrative experience. So when the new session started, I was asked to put up the file relating to amendment. I went through the legal position both in the Constitution and the Act and gave details of the provisions and wrote in my conclusion that the Act was passed to stop Hindi from becoming the Official Language. They were all along writing that the Act was passed to promote Hindi.

Now very few people know or care to know that as per Article 343 of the constitution Hindi was the official language and as per clause 2, English was allowed to be used for fifteen years. Clause 3 further authorised parliament to make a law for continued use of English after this said 15 year time. If the Act was not passed as per clause 3 Hindi would have been the official language on 26th January 1965. The Official Language Act gave a bilingual status to both the languages and further made a provision that this cannot be changed until each and every state of India passes a resolution for the change and after that resolutions have to be passed in both houses of Parliament. This was the most damaging provision in the Act.

I made all these observations in the notes and put up with the amendment bill. All senior officers pressured me to change the notes. I said you convince me that I am wrong or that I have not interpreted the provisions correctly. They said I was correct, but still wanted me to change which I refused. So, ultimately they removed my notings and copy-pasted the earlier note and got it signed from some other person.

So the position is that hindi has survived despite so many hindrances and it has support only of general public and never from the goverment. The present dispensation professes love for hindi, but has done little for the cause.

Hans at 132, A google search gives the following list https://msuweb.montclair.edu/~adarkara/d-studies.html
Once I wondered about Sanskrit pronunciation on since merit is supposed to come from reciting Vedic hymns accurately. I find from the Wikipedia article on Vedic Sanskrit “Varies by region; Vedic pronunciations are still in common use in some regions, e.g. southern India, including Maharashtra.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_Sanskrit

Gaddeswarupji
Thanks for the links. There is a lot of useful info in the links.

Hansji @132

The Bhandarkar Institute started by Professor Bhandarkar who was a Professor of Sanskrit at the Elphinstone College is an institution of higher education affiliated to the University of Mumbai. Established in 1856, it is one of the oldest colleges of the University of Mumbai. It is reputed for producing luminaries like Bal Gangadhar Tilak, Bhim Rao Ambedkar, Virchand Gandhi, Badruddin Tyabji, Pherozshah Mehta, Kashinath Trimbak Telang, Jamsetji Tata and for illustrious professors that includes Dadabhai Naoroji. It is further observed for having played a key role in spread of Western education in the Bombay Presidency.

When he was using the library of the college he found many manuscripts of the Vedas, Ramayan and Mahabharat had many incorrect words and sentences etc.

So he found the original Ms from Kashi and from the Sanskrit Pundits in Kashmir and used them as guidelines.

His work and the Institute’s work are very highly regarded by both British Universities and German Universities.

But if you do not want to uphold the views of the British and German Universities it is up to you to challenge them.

I merely refer to find the truth between Sahasra and Sahastra words. And if one is in doubt about Sanskrit words one can go to the right place and to me “The Bhandarkar Institute is the right place to settles the issues.

Shalan Lal

ArunkumarJi@138, I looked at the Wikipedia article and a few others. It does not seem to say that the institute was started by the government. I tried to check since it was a surprise that the British government named it after an Indian. It is possible. From what I could gather (not definitive) , it was started by his admirers, Tata donated the building and the government provided some funds and facilitated transfer of books. Again, I am not really sure.

ArunkumarJi @139, I looked at the Wikipedia article as well as the history given at the site of BORI. As far as I can see, it was a committee that was formed which also solicited help from the government. In one of the sections, it says “The Committee classified the donors into Patrons, Vice patrons, and Life-members according to the amounts contributed. The Institute’s first Patron was Shrimant Narayanrao Babasahib Ghorpade the chief of Ichalkaranji, whose donation of Rs. 1,000 right at the very start made it possible for the Working Committee to carry on the work of the Institute in its initial stages, The first person to contri bute a sum of Rs. 100 and be a Life – member was Professor V. G. Bijapurkar a former pupil of Sir Ramakrishna. Other contributors came in-perhaps not sufficiently rapidly for the Committee’s needs or expectation – with the result that at the end of year the Committee was able to realise a sum of over four thousand rupees in cash and some ten – thousand rupees in promises, the total expense daring the year amounting to about six hundred rupees which included printing, post age and stationery as well as travelling expenses for trips to Amalner, Bombay, Sholapur and other places.” That was section 34 in the history. Various sections describe negotiations with the government and approaching the governor to become the first president. I was interested mainly because I was surprised that the British government started an institute and named after an Indian. There is cooperation from the government at various stages but it seems to be a committee of admirers who started the project. http://www.bori.ac.in/history-14.html

AK, Arunkumar Deshmukh, Gaddeswarup and others interested in the above discussion.

I agree that the Institute was technically formed by Bhandarkar but that is a minor question. At that time thre were many Sasnkrit scholars both in India England, France and Germany where great reaserch work had been going on. Max Muller was one of the great Sanskritists was also alive .

It is not the Maxmuller’s kind of work nor the work of Apte who wrote a reaserched Sanskrit Dictionary, nor B.G. Tilak who published his interpretation of the Bhagvad Gita as Karma Yoga or many others but the name Bhandarkar was chosen when he was alive to promote his style of work that is to present the corrected versions of the Hindi Sacred Books.

As I understand it is still the aim of the Bhandarkar Institute to work on many other Manuscriptes to find the mistakes in them and correct them and then bring out the published version for the sale.

I mentioned it for finding out the corrected version of the doubtful words “Sahasra & Sashastra.

So I think hair-splitting on the other issues is going away from the main issue.

Hansaji insisted that the realisable Sanskrit goes on up in the north and not in the south. Now that is a very debatable issue which shows on the part of Hansji a deep prejudice about the South.

Shalan Lal

Shalan Lal@143, My apologies, often I do not follow the posts or comments. Once in a while I look at comments for links to songs. Some comments seem to provoke responses. As Oscar Wilde said “the trouble with socialism is that it takes up too many evenings”.

Shalanji
It is really bad that you are playing north-south politics and trying to provoke others to oppose me. I never said anything which you are insinuating. This is what I said in my comment at 47.

“It would be very strange if we are guided by the pronunciation of hindi words by kannada people. Similarly it would be strange if kannada people would take lessons from haryanvis for pronunciation of kannada words.” (comment 47)

I was talking only about pronunciation and I also added vice versa. In my comment at 131 also I was talking about sounds. I never said all north walas know better Hindi/Sanskrit than all south walas which you are trying to project. In fact many south individuals have better pronunciation than north walas. The Tamilian boss I mentioned at 128 did speak better Hindi than many UP walas who are considered better hindi speakers in north than people from other states. But generally you can identify a south Indian clearly when he speaks hindi. If you come to this tell me if you would also be able to say that Indians can teach the British pronunciation of English words. You try to say this to some Britisher as you live there. Or even name an American in place of Indian. You will get the answer.

Venkataramanji
You have misunderstood my question. I was not asking about the phonetics. Kindly look at the last two sentences in my post and answer that. Also thanks for the phonetics, which will be useful if (and when) I try to learn Tamil.

VenkataramanJi @150, I wonder whether McGurk effect has some role in this https://youtu.be/yJ81LLxfHY8

Hansji @147

I am sorry for my misunderstanding about your view about South.
Now that you agreed that Sanskrit scholars could be from any part of India.

Not just fromIndia but from any parts of the world. The present knowledge of Sanskrit has been made approachable to Indians and others by the German and British scholars. Without their hard works and scholarship we would not have been able to understand the Rigved Sukatas and other Sanskrit books. if one is talking about Sanskrit one should have known the History of Sanskrit Literature written by Winternitz in tow Volumes. Before Winternitz there were no books on the history of Sanskrit literature.

Bagvad Gita was first translated into English by Mr Charles Wilkins with the scholastic introduction by Warren Hastings in 1974.

I am glad if you have not any hang-ups about the South and if you think I am creating a storm against you then rest assure that I am not such a person.

But even about Hindi you seemed to have reservations about South Indians teaching or commenting about the grammar and pronunciation of the Hindi words.

I know many South Indians talk Hindi well and I know about Vaijayanti Mala who talked perferct Hind and when asked about her good Hindi in one of her visit to London she said she was taught Hindi by her mother who was a South Indian and also the Hindi Pracharak Leader in the South.

I find this is unusual that you hold such a view that does not go with your other good arguments and comments in various posts.

Once again my apology if you are hurt by my comment.

Shalan Lal

Correction in comment 153
“it should be :
Bagvad Gita was first translated into English by Mr Charles Wilkins with the scholastic introduction by Warren Hastings in 1774 ”
and not as 1974.

Shalan Lal

Shalanji
Thanks for your reply. I did not ask for apologies because I believe there should be frank discussion among friends and I really feel bad when somebody apologises and if that person is elder like you then it is worse.

So, now you tell us that it is because of British or German scholars that we are able to know about correct Sanskrit or our scriptures. If that is so I have a wish. I am from Haryana and no person has written a history of Haryanvi language. So if you can ask some British or German scholar to do this, then approximately 1 crore Haryanvi speaking people will be obliged and they will also know the correct Haryanvi too. 😉

Regarding Bhandarkar Institute I was avoiding commenting, but some of our illustrious commenters have discussed this and a question was raised why did the British Govt name the institute after an Indian. It appears after so many years of our independence, we have forgotten the modus operandi of the Britishers. There process of ruling was that they ruled without taking direct responsibility through most of India. Though many individuals have done great work, yet the general nature of their rule was quite damaging. In non-controversial things like schools, colleges and hospitals they used British names. But for controversial matters like this Institute they used the names of Indians. They used people like Bhandarkar to collect manuscripts which would not have been given to them if they tried to take them directly. It is a well known fact that they took away innumerable arts, artefacts, manuscripts and other valuable things to Britain which have never come back. They printed their own versions of various scriptures and styled them as critical editions. They declared everything held sacred by Hindus – yes they never dared to publish critical editions of Quran or anything else – as mythology. They believed we are fools and instead of leaving us to revel in our follies, they thought it fit to rub it in, by various means, in our minds. Bhandarkar Institute was also a tool – and still is – for this purpose.

You may say that I did not believe in this institute because of my north supremacy theory ( which is not correct, because I dont believe in any such theory), but this institute was targeted by maratha people some time back for defaming Shivaji.

So I commend such institutes only for the books – however faulty they might be in my thinking – they publish. Because you can always get something good out of a book.

Venkataramanji
Thanks for your comments. I understand you and have a lot of respect for you. Arunji and you are both storehouses of knowledge and readily give answers. So I thought otherwise. Now matters are clear. In any case I remember only positives. Kindly dont take it otherwise.

Also, I don’t know which Urdu dictionary he had with no words beginning with dha – my definitive Platts has plenty.

But in the name of assimilation, regional variations, we should not allow massacre of language, such as करा for किया, or elimination of ने in Bihar. If we are conscious about writing/speaking correct/elegant English, we should be equally conscious about Hindi or our own language.

Absolutely! Each language has its own beauty, and its grammar and voice are unique to each. I fully concur with your argument that we must strive to use language correctly – any language! I tear my hair out at what passes for English these days!

To add to my previous comment, some words that are feminine gender in Hindi become masculine in Urdu. There doesn’t seem to be any rationale behind this. It’s like ‘p-u-t’ and ‘b-u-t’ spelled similarly but pronounced differently in English, I guess.

Urdu alphabet does have 46 different letters, but several letters give same sound – the Hindi ‘sa’ is represented by three different letters; ‘za’ (as in ”zindagi’) is represented by three different letters and so on.